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Jhall

points plunger leaking oil

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Jhall
On my b-10 the points plunger is leaking lots of oil. It is the Briggs 23 d engine. Have any of you used a boot on these like the earlier model engines rather than having to pull the engine apart and replace the plunger and guide? If so how difficult was it to make it work and did it work well? Thanks for all of your help. Just last weekend I was able to get my starter/generator working correctly because of this group.

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andy gartner
Get a Briggs manual. It will show you specs./and how to replace the old plunger-simple 2.00 part. But, if the bore is too worn, they have a bore insert, that you ream out after installing to proper plunger specs. This was on an 11 Hp engine. Also check SEARCH at this site-info on elec. ignition- may get rid of points-so MAY not need plunger anymore?? Someone more experienced can advise! A

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PatRarick
The 23D is different from the 11 hp engine. You don't need to ream the bore and install a bushing. You can replace the bushing and the plunger without disassembling the engine or removing the engine from the tractor. There are two styles of bushing in the 23D. Most I have seen are the Style 2. It's easy to tell them apart. Style 2 has the threaded portion sticking out of the engine block. To replace, you need two or three 3/8" flatwashers to use as spacers. You also need a 3/8-24 (fine thread) nut. Place a washer over the bushing and screw the nut onto the bushing. Tighten the nut, pulling the bushing through the washer, until the nut has run to the end of the threads. Remove the nut, add another washer and repeat until the bushing is pulled free, which should be after it has pulled about 1/4" out of the block. Place the new plunger into the new bushing. Place the assembled unit into the hole, and screw the nut onto the new bushing to protect the threads. Use a 1/8" pipe nipple, 2" long, as a driver. drive the assembly into the block until the squared shoulder of the bushing, just below the threads, is flush with the block. The Style 1 plunger is flush with the block, and does not have the threaded portion. The process of changing the bushing and plunger is nearly the same as for the Style 2, but is a little more complicated. You must first pull the plunger out as far as possible and break it off as close to the bushing as possible. Push it back in against the camshaft. Use a 1/4" fine thread tap and thread the plunger bore. The remains of the old plunger will keep shavings from entering the crankcase. Use washers to pull the bushing through, as for the Style 2, but instead of a nut, use a 1/2" long, 1/4" fine thread bolt to pull with. The bushing will be loose when pulled 1/4" to 3/8" from the block. When loose, CAREFULLY remove the bushing and plunger to prevent the plunger and shavings from falling out and into the crankcase. Assemble new plunger and bushing. Use the old bushing as a driver and drive into the block until flush. Pat

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Karl_Brandt
To use the rubber boot you also need 2 other parts. Briggs & Stratton part numbers 68768 plunger seal 93516 seal retainer 221873 retainer plunger seal One of my older Simplicity tractors , I have done this some time ago. This should work ,the B&S 23D & 233400 (9 - 16 hp) both use the same points. [url]www.simplicityva.com[/url] Karl

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EDS
I have a Briggs 23 on a wards tractor and the plunger acts like the end that rides the cam shaft is worn down. It is a Style 1 and the new parts are really expensive. Can I put a style 2 in the engine and what are the part numbers? I remember there being a rubber boot on it.

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PatRarick
I can't say for sure, but I believe the style 2 plunger and bushing replaces the style 1. This assumption is based on the fact that only one bushing, the style 2, is shown in the parts list for the model 23D. The bushing is part# 692880. List price isn't too bad, $5.15. The plunger is part# 298125S, and is fairly expensive. List price is $25.75. Still, $31 is not too bad for the repair. Pat

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Jhall
Hello All, Just an update with some lessons learned. First I decided to go to electronic ignition. I reasoned that this would cost less. That was my first mistake. All seemed to be going well. I took off the cover removed the points, pulled the plunger out with a pair of pliers but left in the bushing. I plugged the bushing with a faucet washer and a wood screw. I then connected the electronic ignition module. It was slow to start but then started and ran ok for a day. I did notice popping in the exhaust when I tried to start it on occassion. The next morning I was moving the tractor to work on another and it would not start even. I checked for fire. I had good fire. It seemed as I wasn't getting gas so I pulled the carb and went through it. It looked good. No trash. It was good as when it was rebuilt. Reinstalled carb. Sprayed starting fluid in. Still no luck. I thought I must have dropped a valve. So I pulled the engine from the tractor and pulled the head. The valves are good. So I re think everything. It must be that ignition module. The tractor was running great before the conversion. So I use the method that was so nicely provided and pulled the points bushing. I have now ordered the parts to replace the bushing and plunger. I hope that this will resolve my problems. I have just one more question. When I pulled the plunger It was very hard to pull and it looks like part of the end remained in the enging. It appears to have fiber end. Can I leave it in the engine and it do no harm or will I have to remove something from the bottom end? The good news from this past weekend is that I got my 707 broadmower running. I put a 11 Briggs IC engine on it. It is a great improvement over the original seven that broke a rod atleast three years ago. It is nice to have the 707 to mow with again.

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PatRarick
You should take off the engine base and find the part. You shouldn't have been able to pull the plunger out. As stated, with the style 1 bushing, you need to break the plunger off and remove the broken remains with the bushing. With the style 2 bushing, you don't need to break off the plunger, you simply remove it with the bushing. If you pulled the plunger out, chances are that you broke off the head, or the head was already broken off. I would remove the pan and find the broken part(s). On the engine that I had problems with, part of the fiber head had found it's way into the rear engine cover (plain bearing) and put a slight score in the bearing. Small pieces of the head were partially plugging the oil entrance and drain holes in the cover. Had it run much longer, it could have destroyed the crankshaft. For that reason, I would remove the rear main bearing cover and check that out also. Pat

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powerking_one
Jhall, et all: What you experienced using one of these two-wire electronic ignition modules is one of their pitfalls. They are basically a voltage avalanche trigger type device; that is it fires when the primary winding voltage jumps to a predetermined level (decided by the module's manufacturer) then shunting the primary current to ground (ie like points closing) and giving you a secondary coil high voltage spark. Since this is a "guess-timate" of when to fire the spark, it may yield inconsistant or non-operational ignition performance for the engine. The Briggs Magnetron however, uses an accurate flywheel rotational position trigger coil to fire the secondary winding which has no timing variation and is a much more preferred and reliable system. I have tried these 2-wire modules myself with mixed success and failure results. All recent (say in the last 20 years) small engine, industrial, marine, and automotive engines use an accurate rotational position type of trigger device to fire the secondary ignition. Sparkingly, Tom(PK)

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powerking_one
Ryan, His engine is a model 23D. You can't put a Magnetron on the old-style "Magnematic" 3-leg armature systems; only on the newer 2-leg armatures. Tom(PK)

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Dutch
quote:
Originally posted by powerking_one
Jhall, et all: What you experienced using one of these two-wire electronic ignition modules is one of their pitfalls. They are basically a voltage avalanche trigger type device; that is it fires when the primary winding voltage jumps to a predetermined level (decided by the module's manufacturer) then shunting the primary current to ground (ie like points closing) and giving you a secondary coil high voltage spark. Since this is a "guess-timate" of when to fire the spark, it may yield inconsistant or non-operational ignition performance for the engine. The Briggs Magnetron however, uses an accurate flywheel rotational position trigger coil to fire the secondary winding which has no timing variation and is a much more preferred and reliable system. I have tried these 2-wire modules myself with mixed success and failure results. All recent (say in the last 20 years) small engine, industrial, marine, and automotive engines use an accurate rotational position type of trigger device to fire the secondary ignition. Sparkingly, Tom(PK)
Tom, Your description of these electronic triggers is quite accurate. The "avalanche" can actually be seen and heard. Unlike the single electric snap produced by mechanical points, the trigger will cause a sizzle. However, what you view as a "pitfall" may be an advantage. Points will cause only a single plug fire. The trigger will produce multiple fires. Theoretically, multiple fires should mean if the plug doesn't ignite the fuel on the first try, there are other opportunities. As long as the timing is set for the trigger to fire at the correct time, multiple fires should create an extremely minute and harmless retarded condition.

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andy gartner
Dutch Thinking of trying one of your $10 triggers... remove points? and plug the leaking plunger hole, on my 11 HP vertical shaft 4111; which runs fine for 1/2 hour then starts uummmmming, like I'm alternately giving it more, then less throttle. The timing issue. My Briggs repair manual doesn't cover this motor specifically. There's an arrow w/a circular shaft on the flywheel but not sure what to line it up with?? A

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Dutch
Andy, Don't remove the points until you're satisfied with the trigger performance. Just disconnect the wire that goes to the points and use that wire for the trigger. (Make sure the second trigger wire has a good ground and that the trigger itself is grounded) Don't mess with the timing yet. If the engine runs now with the points, it should run with the trigger without changing the timing. I never change more than one variable at a time. That's the only way I can troubleshoot a problem.

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Jhall
Ok here's the update. I received the parts to replace the plunger and bushning on Friday at 4:30. Btw it was the old style bushing, not threaded, that I received new from my local simplicity dealer. By 7pm I had removed the parts from the broken plunger from the oil pan, installed a new head gasket and oil pan gasket. I then put in the new plunger and bushing. Reinstalled the boils and condenser. By 9pm I had the engine back in the tractor and running. It now starts with just a bump of the starter. I runs much better than ever before. I now doesn't leak oil either. Thanks for all the help I received from fellow board members. JH

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