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Dutch

Ignition… Problem – Solution

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Dutch
Some of you guys are still wrestling with Briggs ignition problems. The problem may be the points, or the condenser ($20). If you install a ($40) Magnetron, should you pull the engine, remove the flywheel and send it away to be repolarized? You could convert to battery ignition. But, you will need a coil and will still have the problems associated with the points and condenser. Did you read Pat Rarick’s story about his excellent troubleshooting and finding a partially broken points plunger head? Pat had to partially disassemble the engine to find that problem. Here’s my solution.... I mentioned it before, but I’ll mention it again. This time with photos.... Electronic Trigger. Here’s the points box cover installed. Looks OEM to me. [img]/club2/attach/dutch/cover.jpg[/img] Here’s the points box cover removed. No points….. No condenser….. No plunger.... No repolarization.... No more problems. A ten minute job, at a $10 cost. What if the module goes bad? What about it? Install another..... $10 & 10 minutes (one screw - no gap setting). Time to enjoy the 21st century guys.:D [img]/club2/attach/dutch/module.jpg[/img]

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PatRarick
Dutch, does your engine start as easily as with points? I tried one of these and it worked great except that the engine took a little more to start. For that reason, I left the points in my B-110 for the snowblower. Pat

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rokon2813
A few questions: 1 same as Pat's above 2 where do I get them? 3 will it work on anything with points? 4 is that the points plunger next to it? So how does it know when to fire?

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Dutch
Pat, I found that the module won't produce spark at as low a cranking speed as points will. But, with a good battery, a tight belt, and a S/G system that is operating as it should, it will start on one or two revolutions (same as points). I can even start them on the bench with a rope, provided I give it a good pull.

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Dutch
quote:
Originally posted by rokon2813
A few questions: 1 same as Pat's above 2 where do I get them? 3 will it work on anything with points? 4 is that the points plunger next to it? So how does it know when to fire?
1)... See above answer. 2)... Anywhere that sells small engine parts. 3)... No, only engines with a magneto (like Briggs). It won't work on a Kohler with battery ignition. 4) The points plunger hole has been plugged (don't need a plunger). The module knows when to fire because of the mystery of modern electronic technological marvels (it can sense the magnetic field when the flywheel magnet passes by the armature).

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rokon2813
Cool thanks Dutch. I'm definately going to look into those. I dont deal with too many Kohlers anyway, mainly briggs. I was asking because I have a 3 hp briggs on a Jari sickle mower that keeps loosing spark for some reason.

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johnmonkey
Thanks for the info Dutch. So in other words I can go to a Briggs dealer and ask for an "electronic trigger" and they will know what I am talking about. Is there a size of engine issue? or does one size fit all? I assume that the dealer would have the plunger plug also?? Thanks for the help. John H

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BLT
quote:
Originally posted by johnmonkey
Thanks for the info Dutch. So in other words I can go to a Briggs dealer and ask for an "electronic trigger" and they will know what I am talking about. Is there a size of engine issue? or does one size fit all? I assume that the dealer would have the plunger plug also?? Thanks for the help. John H
Jack's Small Engines has them, but not all Briggs dealers would have them as their main push would be Magnetron. http://www.jackssmallengines.com/ignition_b.cfm

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RayS
Good post Dutch, I have been using this same one now for 2 years now and I will never go back to points. I first had problems with the points when using the snow blower water would get under the points cover and screw up the points. Put the trigger on and haven`t had a problem since. Ray

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Dutch
quote:
Originally posted by johnmonkey
.... I can go to a Briggs dealer and ask for an "electronic trigger" and they will know what I am talking about.
Maybe........ Some may call it a "Trigger" or "Module" or "Gizmo" Others may have never heard of it. Ask for the $10 electronic "Thing" that replaces the points.
quote:
Originally posted by johnmonkey
Is there a size of engine issue?
No.
quote:
Originally posted by johnmonkey
or does one size fit all?
Yes.
quote:
Originally posted by johnmonkey
I assume that the dealer would have the plunger plug also??
Should....... Those are engine specific. BTW...... I now remove the plunger and bushing, tap the hole and install a pipe plug.

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Dutch
ADDENDUM I install those modules where the points were because it fits, it's hidden, the wires are right there, and it makes sense to me. However, as long as the module is wired to the armature and has a good ground, it can be mounted anywhere on the tractor. Even under the seat.

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Dadsy98
Thank you Dutch. this is the no nonsense straight from the hip explanation of a solution to a very common problem. I copy these gems to a scrapbook on my tractors. I currently have a briggs with a Very weak spark. I'll pull the engine and check the coil then decide where I go from there. thanks again! Steve

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Roy
Dutch, On my Model 19 B & S with MagnaMatic ignition I had to mount the module on the flywheel shroud in the air flow from the fan. I had the first one mounted externally on the points cover and it smoked (failed from overheating) in less than 30 minutes. Starting is more difficult but the spark is good while cranking. I think I may have other problems causing hard starting. E.g. Starter turning too slow and/or carburetor problem. I like the module since it solved a years old problem with missing under load after the engine gets extremely hot. I think the missing problem was excess camshaft axial end play as descibed by Al a long time ago. I like ignition modules. Engine still runs good if the generator dies or the battery is low. My nickles worth,

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BLT
Have had one on my 7010 for at least ten years. It carries a patent number 5,058,543. I did encounter a problem when I first installed mine. I by-passed the points like the instructions said, but on the non compression cycle I kept on getting a popping sound, so I wired it thru the points and and gave the points a lazy setting (so they would barely break)and the old cast iron has been doing fine. It does seem to be hard on spark plugs, as I seem to be putting in a new plug every year. In my area, we're stuck with re-formulated gasoline and have gone to CJ-14 plugs that Champion said at one time would take care of the problem, but it doesn't. Still a small price to pay. The gas does however really raises havoc with my two cycle stuff, IE string trimmer, leaf blower blower and chain saw. Every two years I have to replace gas lines as they all turn to moosh in the tank. But with some discarded surgical forceps and clamps, I can change those out pretty fast. I also have become a firm beliver in Stabil as it extentds the shelf live of the fuel. It almost eliminates any carb work on those little buggers.

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Dutch
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
.... on the non compression cycle I kept on getting a popping sound,....
You probably had unburned fuel in the cylinder, a leaky head gasket, an ill fitting valve, a key starting to shear, or the armature timing was off. Unlike engines with a distributor, the Briggs will fire on at the top of the exhaust stroke as well as the top of the compression stroke.

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BLT
quote:
Originally posted by dutch
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
.... on the non compression cycle I kept on getting a popping sound,....
You probably had unburned fuel in the cylinder, a leaky head gasket, an ill fitting valve, a key starting to shear, or the armature timing was off. Unlike engines with a distributor, the Briggs will fire on at the top of the exhaust stroke as well as the top of the compression stroke.
Dutch, not complaining, but had the the problem and made my own fix. I am sold on it.

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PatRarick
Dutch and Bob, I'm a little confused as to the popping sound you describe, and your solution. On the cast iron singles, the points open only at the end of the compression stroke, being driven by the camshaft. They do not fire on every stroke, or am I missing something here? On all the other Briggs engines, the points open on every stroke, being driven by the crankshaft. Pat

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BLT
quote:
Originally posted by PatRarick
Dutch and Bob, I'm a little confused as to the popping sound you describe, and your solution. On the cast iron singles, the points open only at the end of the compression stroke, being driven by the camshaft. They do not fire on every stroke, or am I missing something here? On all the other Briggs engines, the points open on every stroke, being driven by the crankshaft. Pat
Pat when I installed the triggering device, I eliminated the points. The popping I mentioned was more like backfiring. I put on my spark tester and it was sparking every rev. I thought that that was my dilema, so I kept the points and rerouted the triggring device thru the points where the spark would fire every other stroke like the original setup.(Cast iron engine) Since then I havevn't messed with it. Never even took off point box to see what points look like. I just keep running it. Bob

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PatRarick
Bob, I jumped the gun there. I was thinking of "point controlled" firing, rather than "trigger controlled". The magnets pass the armature on every revolution. Engines with internal (under the flywheel) points use the crankshaft to open the points so they fire on every revolution. Engines with external points (not under the flywheel) use the camshaft to open the points, so they open every other revolution. Even though the magneto wants to fire on every revolution, the points only allow it to fire on every other revolution. That is where my thinking was on firing only at the end of the compression stroke. With the trigger, the points play no part in firing. As long as the magnets pass the armature, the trigger will produce spark so the engine will fire on every revolution. I now understand your solution. The points are normally open. The trigger needs to be grounded to operate. Wiring your trigger through the points will allow it to ground only at the end of the compression stroke. Your trigger will ground just before, and until just after the compression stroke. Have I got it now? Pat

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HubbardRA
Dutch, I may try one of these units on the 712S, if I ever get the time to finish it. I can't use one on the 10Hp that is currently on my 716H, because there is no easy spin lump on the cam and with a #51 battery it will barely torn over to start with a battery-coil ignition. Can't turn it fast enough for electronic. I think I have one of those units still in the package hangine on the wall in the garage. Came in some parts I bought at auction. Since it isn't under the flywheel, then I will try it.

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Dutch
quote:
Originally posted by PatRarick
... With the trigger, the points play no part in firing. Have I got it now?
Pat, you sure do............. Can you imagine how I feel when my wife decides to relocate a chair that's been in the same spot for years?

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Dutch
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
Dutch, not complaining, but had the the problem and made my own fix. I am sold on it.
Bob, I didn't think you were complaining. You understand mechanical concepts. My response was meant for those who are just learning. It is important for inexperienced users to understand that the "trigger" will only eliminate the sometimes annoying problems with points and condensers. They must have a good armature, and all other mechanical components must be operating properly. Just like other aftermarket gizmos, contrary to some wild advertizing claims, installing a "trigger" will NOT correct a bad armature, a sheared flywheel key, a leaking carburetor, oil burning, or a rod hanging through the side of the block. :D

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UCD
Dutch I thought the solution to a rod though the block was JB WELD it will fix anything. A friend's moto was "I can fix anything except a broken Heart and the crack in your A**, you need JB Weld for that."

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