Jump to content

Unofficial Home of Old Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden Tractors

Sign in to follow this  
nickh

Landlord 3410 starter and ignition

Recommended Posts

nickh
I just got my hands a non-running 1972 3410. It has a B and S 11 horse(?) model 243431 type 0627-01 engine. I know it will do what I want when I get it fixed up. I only have one day each week end to work on it and have to take it one step at a time. Here's the currrent problem. I finished diving into the fuel system and just rebuilt the carb. I had had charged the battery and figured I'd crank it over after I changed the oil, etc. I got nothing, not even a click. I haven't had time to check the obvious (wiring to switch, etc) but I am pretty sure I don't have spark either. Since I try to order parts during the week over the phone and replace them on the weekend, I try to plan my bench time as carefully as possible. I would like to check the starter and ignition. I can easily do the points, etc but was amazed to find two condensers, one in the cover on the block and another on the side of the coil. What gives? Also, I had to leave in mid step in order to get home in time. I did not see the starter anywhere easily accessible. I have the B and S parts list and it shows the starter parts, but not where it is or how to get to it. I figure it has to be near the flywheel? I sure looks crowded in there and hard to get to. The Simplicity operator Manual describes what I figured was the starter as the generator and also as generator/motor in a couple of places. It reads as if the generator possible acts as the starter when switched correctly? This seems very unlikely to me. I saw what certainly looked like a selenoid sitting right on top of the generator(?) housing. So, what's the configuration? Any help would be appreciated. I plan on removing what I can this upcoming weekend, order parts during the week and get it back together the weekend after that. Nick
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
simplejim
your 3410 should have a starter/generator. it starts your tractor then after its running it keeps your battery charged. the engine could have been replaced with a newer one that uses a gear driven starter that drives directly off the flywheel teeth but if it has a starter/generator on it then thats your starter.the thing on the starter/generator housing is most likely your voltage regulator. if it has an automotive type coil bolted to the engine then it has been changed over to that type of coil but im not sure why they would have used two condensers.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stumpy
Nick, Your generator is also your starter. Also, it sounds like the motor has been converted to battery coil ignition. Only needs one condensor. In the original, non-coil configuration the condensor is under the cover with the points. I usually just mount it with the coil when I do a conversion instead of cluttering things up under the points cover. Stick with the battery coil...the spark is better and more reliable than with a magneto, and it's easier to work on things when a problem arises. Try to confirm that the coil somebody installed is the internal ballast type. If it isn't, replace it with one that is. The only negative is the fact that you have to have a well charged functional battery for the coil system to work. Enjoy your new machine. You'll find this site and the people here to be an invaluable resource. Good Luck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rokon2813
also; model 243431 is 10 hp not 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
goatfarmer
There should be a solenoid mounted near the starter/generator.That's what gives power to the starter when you turn the key. I've got a 3410 LandLord. My first,and favorite Simplicity.The 243431 is an original type engine for that tractor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UCD
Kenny No solenoid with a starter/Generater. Solenoid is used with a gear driven stater to act as a high current switch and to ingage the gear onto the flywheel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
simplicity707
I have solenoid on my gear driven starter, but no solenoid on my starter-generator. Hope that helps too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gregc
I think Simplicity started using the solenoid with the starter/generator when they stopped using the push button starter switch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dutch
Guys...... If you're going to have the "SOLENOID" debate, get on the same page for those who may be novices. Although not 100% technically accurate, in automotive terms: A SOLENOID converts electrical energy into mechanical energy. An example is the "solenoid" that bolted to the top of Delco (GM) starters. It physically pushes the starter gear into contact with the flywheel ring gear. A RELAY is a switch that closes a high current circuit with low current wiring. An example is the starter "relay" used by Ford. It has a small guage wire that closes the circuit to the heavy gauge cables coming from the battery and starter. Problem is, even experienced mechanics refer to both "solenoids" and "relays" as either "solenoids" or "relays". It usually doesn't matter because "we" know what they mean. However, someone who doesn't know the difference may get easily confused and mislead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UCD
Dutch You are right but the GM solenoid is both a solenoid and relay in one unit. The ford style the solenoid was on the starter with the relay mounted on the fender well the GM unit was all mounted on the starter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gregc
While I have not taken apart and inspected the part that Simplicity calls a solenoid, I accepted thier calling it that. A solenoid has a moveable core. Is this part a solenoid?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kent
Call it what you want, it showed up on the key-start tractors... push-button starters didn't.... [img]http://www.simpletractors.com/images/wiring/wd_110_112.jpg[/img]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ryan
Check the relay for power by putting a test light on the small gauge wire and hit the key. If the light does not light, check the neutral safety switch under the seat pan. Unplug it and put a jumper wire between the 2 wires and then hit the key again. This will get you started

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IronPony
OK, guys, where does the bendex fit into all this?? Thought it was the mechanical part that pushed the starter gear to the flywheel?? Dan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rokon2813
your right too Dan the Bendix is the mechanical portion while the solenoid is the electrical portion that actuates the bendix. The bendix is also the part thatallows the gear to disengage after the engine starts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Boney
I am taking a risk here of sounding foolish { I state here that I am rookie to tractors}, did you check to make sure the battery held the charge ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dutch
quote:
Originally posted by howlanddm
OK, guys, where does the bendex fit into all this??
Dan, that's the point I was trying to make. Not all gear driven starters use a "solenoid". Your K-series Kohlers use the same starter "relay" as the S/G Briggs. It has a type of starter gear known as a "Bendix" type, which is a sliding gear mounted on a shaft or in a housing with a spiral groove. Your K-series Kohler uses a "Bendix type" gear drive on the starter motor shaft, the same as the older Ford cars. The "relay" starts the starter motor spinning. As it spins, the "Bendix" gear moves out on the spiral groove and engages the flywheel teeth. After you release the key, and cut current to the "relay" and starter motor, a spring forces the starter motor "Bendix" gear to retract back along the groove away from the flywheel gear. On the GM type automotive starters, a "solenoid" mechanically engages the starter motor gear with the flywheel gear at the same time as it applies high current to the starter motor. If you go looking for a "solenoid" mounted on your Kohler starter, you won't find it because it isn't there, and never was. What you will find is a "relay" mounted elsewhere on the tractor. In the illustrations posted by Kent above, Simplicity labelled the relay as a "Solenoid". That's okay, many mechanics call a starter relay a solenoid. I was just trying to clear up any confusion. Look carefully at the lower illustration. See the "starter switch"? That's in the dash on the early B-series, which requires heavy cables to be installed from the battery through the instrument panel and back out to the S/G. On cars, starter buttons go back to the 1920's and 1930's. They were usually mounted on the floor with linkage going the the starter gear. a driver would use their foot as both a "relay" and "solenoid". Those long cables that were exposed to oil, grease, water, ice and other road hazzards created many starting problems, and caused more than a few fires. Ah...... the good old days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IronPony
Ah - - the good old days. My grandfather never found the starter button on my mothers old Studabaker. It was under the clutch so that you had to depress the clutch to start the engine. Dan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UCD
One of the first neutral safety switched

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dutch
quote:
Originally posted by howlanddm
Ah - - the good old days. My grandfather never found the starter button on my mothers old Studabaker. It was under the clutch so that you had to depress the clutch to start the engine. Dan
The independent auto makers had many worthwhile features. Studebaker also had a "Hill Holder". As those of us who drive a stick shift know, sometimes it would be nice to have 3 feet if you're stopped on a hill. One to hold down the clutch, another to hold the brake, and a third to press the accelerator when you want to go. Well, Studebaker had a check valve linked to the clutch and brakes on some models. It would hold pressure in the brake lines until the clutch pedal started to be released. You could use one foot to press the gas pedal and the other foot would release the brakes as you were engaging the clutch. The "Hill Holder" was a rolling ball inside a chamber. It would only work if the car was on a hill. It the car was on a flat surface, you could disengage the clutch without effecting the brakes. There....... and nobody even wanted to know that tidbit of info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
goatfarmer
Studebaker also engineered "flow through ventilation" on the last models they built,in 1966.Took air that flowed through the passenger compartment,and exited it at the taillites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ishmael2k
quote:
I did not see the starter anywhere easily accessible. I have the B and S parts list and it shows the starter parts, but not where it is or how to get to it. I figure it has to be near the flywheel? I sure looks crowded in there and hard to get to.
Hmmm, is it just me or does this seem a bit unusual? The Starter/generator is quite a large visable unit hanging off the side of the engine. I am not picking on a newbee but am just wondering if it is even there? Also my all of the 3400 series I have worked on have a starter relay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ryan
Some old Buicks had the starter switch under the gas peddle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
UCD
56 buick push gas pedal to floor to start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
goatfarmer
Just hope the car starts before it floods from too much gas...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×