Repower with old Briggs?

[PhanDad]

I've got a lead on a newer "Sovereign" (GTHL17???). I haven't seen it yet but it's supposed to be in good condition except the owner ran the engine out of oil. I understand the engine to be an opposed twin of some sort (not a V). I was told it MAY be rebuildable. Anyone have any ideas about the engine (make, relilability, material of construction)? I've got an old cast iron single cylinder Briggs; could that be "easily" installed as a replacement engine? I've read about putting newer engines in older tractors, but not the other way around. Thanks for your thoughts.

[goatfarmer]

I bought a newer(1996)Broadmoor,with a blown 12.5 Briggs Vanguard vertical. I thought about replacing it with a Briggs IC vertical engine,because it was about half price of a new Vanguard.But after looking at rigging up exhaust,etc,I went with the Vanguard.

[Dutch]

The existing engine should be a KT-Series Kohler. Installing an older Briggs single should be very easy since those tractors were available with those engines. That would also be a smart move...... newer tractor powered by an engine you already have. Then if you ever come across a V-Twin Kohler, that will bolt right in too. If that's the tractor Dieter has kicking around. I was thinking about buying it myself. I just have too many other projects right now.

[SmilinSam]

Soveriegn types at least through the mid to late 80's had holes already drilled for the Briggs and single cylinder Kohler patterns as well as the twin kohlers. Old Briggs to newer tractor would readily work as long as you don't use a pre 1971 Briggs. The diesels did not have these holes pre drilled, they only had holes for the diesels as I remember. The Briggs that will work are the ones like in the 3300 series and newer that have the stand pipe tapped into the lower part of the block and a simple drain plug in the pan. The 1970 and older engines like on the B-series won't work unless you do some torch work on the tractor frame so you can access the fill/check plug which is located in the pan on those older ones rather than in the block like the newer ones. You would also have to put the correct keyswitch and wiring in place for the Briggs if switching from the kohler, or vice versa....

[Les]

I put a cast 16 Briggs out of a 7016 into a 912 which had a Kohler. I had to pull the base and turn it around to get the oil drain in the right place. The wiring was different, had to use the 7016 wiring. Remember to use a new gasket if you remove the base. There were some 916's sold with Briggs motors. So it should work assuming the tractor you are getting is a Soveriegn. GTHL17 and a 17hp motor doesn't sound like a Sovereign to me, sounds more like the smaller frame tractors, but I am not that familiar with the newer tractors or the smaller models.

[SmilinSam]

Les, the GTH was what they called the Soveriegn types in between the 7100 series and the Soveriegn designation of the 90's

[PhanDad]

Dutch, This isn't Dieter's tractor, it's at a local Simplicity dealer. Les, I'm not sure of the exact "name" of the tractor; but I thought the Sovereign size tractors were called "GT..." after the "71..." series and before the last "sovereign" series were made in the late '90's. I hope to actually see it next week and then I'll be able to get all the info correct. All, The dealer's asking $500 for the tractor as it sits (with 48" deck). Fair price? Thanks for your comments.

[PatRarick]

One thing I haven't heard mentioned, is the horsepower or the model of the Briggs engine that you have on hand. With the hydro and the 48" deck, you would want at least a model 30XXX, 12 horsepower. Pat

[thedaddycat]

The biggest difference between a Landlord and a Soverign is engine HP, that and the stickers... The highest HP Landlord was the 2012 at (gee have you guessed yet?) 12 horse power, at least through the 70's. I'm less familiar with the newer ones, didn't they create the Baron series as a mid-level tractor in the 80's? Anyhow it sounds like you're on the right track with that repower. I have a Briggs 16 single that needs a rebuild. It may wind up in a 7114 tractor, front PTO and all...

[Les]

Also, there could be a driveshaft length issue, I seem to remember that the twins use a shorter drive shaft than the singles.

[SmilinSam]

TWins generally used a shorter shaft using a wide rubber coupler rather than the fiberglass disc. No problem though as I have connected those types to the single cylinders as well. Used the same shaft/rubber coupler in my 917 with the KT17 also with a Briggs 14 single, and again with a Vanguard twin all in the same tractor frame.

[Les]

I would like to have some more detailed information on the post 7100 Sovereign numbering and years of mfg., for the history section. Also I dont know much of anything about the smaller series tractors and years of production, I just remember alphabet soup after 1983. Also, what years did they do the "system" nomenclature? was that 1974 or 1975? Was it just one year?

[SmilinSam]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Les
I would like to have some more detailed information on the post 7100 Sovereign numbering and years of mfg., for the history section. Also I dont know much of anything about the smaller series tractors and years of production, I just remember alphabet soup after 1983. Also, what years did they do the "system" nomenclature? was that 1974 or 1975? Was it just one year?

---

I know the 7100 series started in 1979 and was finished by or before 1990. My 1990 literature shows the GTH-L(new version of the 7100 series) The problem I see is that I also have 1987 literature thas shows the complete Simplicity line up but without the 7100 series, GTH, or Soveriegn type even being offered. So, this would possibly suggest that there may have been a period between 1985 and 1987 when the tractor frame was completetly discontinued at or around the introduction of the Sunstar. More questions needing answered. On the Sytem nomenclature I'm pretty sure it was both 74 & 75. I have physically had both years here with that tacky decal on them. Also Les, Here is a link to revisions I suggested be done to the Homelite History section too [url]http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19783[/url]

[PhanDad]

Les, Here's a link to a post about the "sovereign" timeline with an enlighting reply by Kent: http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17254

[Les]

Gettin kinda picky aren't we????:):):) A problem with writing the history section is how detailed do you want to be. Also, I receive a lot of conflicting information, and everybody seems to REALLY ENJOY jumping all over me when they see something they dont think is correct and especially when I don't add their information. For instance Sam states that there were no factory Kohlers ever put into Homelites, another club member swears that he has a Homelite T-16 with a factory Kohler engine. It kind of makes sense to me that there might be a few Kohler T-16's, as Simplicity changed 7016 production from Kohler to Briggs and then back to Kohler again, there must have been a reason, could it have been that Homelite insisted on Kohler engines in their products after a few Homelite-Kohlers were made? Years of production are hard too, because Simplicity made changes when they felt the need to, not according the the calander year, plus is the calander year and Simplicity model year the same??? I don't know. The history section is in a constant state of evolution(heck, three years ago we didn't even know Simplicity had made Homelites) so don't take this wrong, I must have information to make a complete and interesting history section. The history section is a combination of information provided by many, many club members. Just remember that someone has to make the call what does and does not go in, and I do the best I can. The goals of the history section are: 1. As accurate as possible 2. As comprehensive as possible 3. As interesting as possible Also, I choose not to add any information that might be construed as negative and there are also some legal concerns that I don't wish to discuss. Keep sending me information but just take it easy on me. One other question is that as Sam alluded to, was the Sovereign type tractor out of production for a while? The story I heard was that Simplicity discontinued it in the late 1980's but the dealers insisted on it's return. Can anybody confirm this?

[SmilinSam]

Les, I don't have all the books and paperwork on the Simplcity Manufactured Homelites, but I do have most on the AC lexington built ones through end of production 1973 . This includes a complete engine guide and replacement model index and the only thing listed is Briggs & Stratton through and through. I believe thats what I stated too, there were no Kohlers in the AC Produced Homelites As to the Simplicity units, I 'd be really skeptical as to there being Kohlers in them since there were no Kohlers in the Simnplicty tractors at the time. The 74/75 Simplicitys used a 13 hp Briggs (System 7013) 10 HP Briggs (System 7010) and 16 HP Briggs(System 7016) You can take to the bank that there were no factiry Kohlers on the 1974 Simplicity built Homelites. I do have the spec sheets on what was offered on them , and it was straight Briggs & Stratton. A 10 , a 13, and a 16 hp Briggs just like on the Simplicity Line up. So, I have 1971 -1974 pretty much nailed down in hard paperwork. 1975 is the only year I can't verify 100%, but as an educated guess I think the offerings on engines would not differ from the Simplciity line up. And.. I have yet to see a factory kohler on a Simplicity prior to 1976. The only Homelites I have ever seen with Kohlers were Jacobsen manufactured machines which began in 1976.

[JBLACK]

My wifes` grandmother has a GTHL17 that was bought new in 92 with an (opposed) Kohler twin it is quite the machine.The tractor itself is nearly identical to my father in laws` 7100 series tractor except for the all orange color .

[Les]

Some time back I had this same type of discussion as to the existence of Briggs powered 916's, they didn't exist until someone emailed me a picture of one. If you look at an INTEREC service manual they give a serial number range for 716's and 7016's that had Briggs engines. Maybe that would give us another clue. Also did Simplicity go by model year or calander year or did they change so often that year becomes almost irrelevant. I have also heard that unsold older models were counted as the model year in which they were sold. Also, why did they switch to Kohlers, cheaper? Did they buy a few 16 hp Briggs to keep the cost of the Kohlers down? Another problem with history is we are talking about events that happened 25 to 45 years ago, face it, memories fade and people die. It should be pretty easy to date the Homelite T-16's with Briggs by the engine serial number.

[SmilinSam]

As to dating the tractors that are or were in my posesion I generally refer to the engine code for the year made. I also go by literature I have collected. Like I said, I have much of the Homelite timeline nailed down via literature and engine numbers 1971 -1974. I can also tell you that I did part out a Simplicity Homelite T-16H that carried a 1975 Briggs & Stratton and had the outside healight assembly on the hood. Now given that MAynard bought a new 1975 7016 during summer (Mid Year) that had the second generation 7000 series hood with the headlights inside the grill and I once possesed a 7016 with a 1975 engine in it with the outside headlights that would point to a mid year production shift to the newer hood style. Did Simplicity keep building Homelites with the previous hood? Could have, but I doubt they would spend the extra money to keep the tooling going for the other hood style alongside the new one. So, its likely that Homelite production by Simplcity ended around mid year 1975 as well. Conjecture I know, but I think its sound considering I have never seen nor heard of a Homelite T series with the newer 7000 series style hood on it, nor with a six-speed option on the T-10.

[Les]

I have had two 7016's with Briggs 326437 engines, the first one, 1690342 001104 had 8511281 which was obviously a replacement engine, the second, 1690427 002485 had 7903261, which would have made it one of the last 7016's made, as the 7100 series came out in 1979.

[SmilinSam]

Kinda looks like there is a trend for partial year overlaps in model changeovers. What do you think?