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Les

Need help with History Section update

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Les
Please help me with the history section update. It is my goal to make the history section as accurate and interesting as possible. Please remember that I get a lot of conflicting information so I make the best call that I can as to what to put in. Right now I am working on adding sections specific to the history of the Soveriegn and SunStar tractors, for more detail. Also, the Homelite area will recieve a major overhaul. I have copied a few of the recent threads off of the discussion board, but I dont read everything, if anyone can remember a good discussion topic related to history, please let me know. Also, I dont know much about the smaller frame tractors, i.e. homesteader, 4200 series, 5200 series, etc. Any info is appreciated. Also what was the time frame when the Sovereign was discontinued the first time? Was it late 1980's? Thanks, Les

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andy gartner
Howdy Les, I'm certainly no expert and I defer to the more knowledgable garues here on the site, but if I can be of any help esp w/the 4200's I'd be happy to assist. There were some pretty good threads recently about 4200's, and a 4210 promo model. a

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Guest
Les, Just curious, do we, did we, have any members that actually work/worked for Simplicity. How nice it would be and what a great possible resource. Not a huge profile reader so dont know. Doug

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Brent_Baumer
Good queston Doug. Been reading almost all the tractor related posts here since the club was on Yahoo and don't recall any members saying they were Simplicity employees. That is surprising. You'd think we'd have dozens of them here. Anyone? Brent

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Les
quote:
Originally posted by andy gartner
Howdy Les, I'm certainly no expert and I defer to the more knowledgable garues here on the site, but if I can be of any help esp w/the 4200's I'd be happy to assist. There were some pretty good threads recently about 4200's, and a 4210 promo model. a
None of us are experts, anything you know about dates of production, model numbers, etc. would be appreciated. Thats how this site got started and keeps going, everybody adds what they know.

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Dutch
quote:
Originally posted by Les
Any info is appreciated. Also what was the time frame when the Sovereign was discontinued the first time? Was it late 1980's?
Les, I don’t know how much the following will help, but from my “unscientific” research, production of the “modern” (w/ running boards) LFGT tractors is as follows: After reading the new history Page, I did some further research and revised my previous conclusions. 1970 – 1971… 3300 series 1972 – 1974… 3400 series (first w/ cone clutch) 1975 – 1979… 7000 series (first w/ Sunstrand Hydro) 1979 – 1989… 7100 series (first to offer diesel engine) 1990 – 1992… Production suspended? 1993 – 1996… Sovereign (only Hydro and Kohler 18hp OHV engines) 1997 – 2000… Sovereign (only Hydro and Kohler 18hp OHC engines) Revision: 1979 – 1984… 7100 series (2" longer than the 7000 series and offered several single and twin cylinder engines from 10hp to 20hp (including the Lombardini diesel) and various transmission options. 1985 – 1986… Appears production was suspended? 1987 – 1989… 7100 series offered again as the 7117 Hydro (Kohler flat twin engine w/ hydro lift) and the 7116 Hydro (Briggs single cylinder w/ manual lift) 1990 – 1992… GTH-L offered with only the Kohler 17hp flat twin engine. 1993 – 1997… Sovereign offered with only the Kohler 18hp OHV (Command) V-Twin engine. 1997 – 2000… Sovereign offered with only the Kohler 18hp OHC (Triad) V-Twin engine. The 3300, 3400, and 7000 series used model names Landlord, Baron, and Sovereign. Only single cylinder 10hp to 18hp engines were available. Various transmissions were available. The 7100 series used model names Sovereign and GTH-L. Had two inch longer wheelbase than previous models. Both single and twin cylinder 10hp to 20hp engines were available. Various transmissions were available. Keep up the good work on the History Page. It was the very first page I read, and it helped me quite a bit.

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Les
As I read it, your both right, it was 1989 for the 1990 model year. This is what gets tough about writing an accurate history. Thanks for the info, it would be impossible for one guy alone to compile all of these facts without published sources. Even my nearby Simplicity dealer, who used to be a block man for Allis-Chalmers, is unable to give me a lot of information. I am really exited about this update, lots more interesting info on the Sovereign.

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SmilinSam
Here is what I wrote in the tractor timeline topic which I made sticky at the top for you Les....:
quote:
I know the 7100 series started in 1979 and was finished by or before 1990. My 1990 literature shows the GTH-L(new version of the 7100 series) The problem I see is that I also have 1987 literature thas shows the complete Simplicity line up but without the 7100 series, GTH, or Soveriegn type even being offered. So, this would possibly suggest that there may have been a period between 1985 and 1987 when the tractor frame was completetly discontinued at or around the introduction of the Sunstar.
Here is the post you were looking for MPH answering the question I posed:
quote:
Originally posted by Al
Hi, Sam is correct, after the Sun Star and Landlord [new type] arrived the company felt the 7100s were unneeded and were discontinued. So many dealers complained that customers had so many attachments etc and wanted the tractors. As I remember the return was 1 model the GTHL with a kt17 engine. The word to us dealers then was: You keep ordering them and we'll keep building them, when the numbers go down it will be over. Note they survived a number of years, the aniversary edition and 2 more engines before the volume dropped and the reincarnated died the second death. Think about this. How many companies would have responded this way. This why this company is WAY above the rest of the industry. [A] They only market through dealers, and [B] They are a very open company and understand that the product is not sold until it is sold to the consumer. They are the best company we deal with. Al Eden

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Kent
OK, Les provided me a much more detailed version of the History, and I just published it. Here it is: http://www.simpletractors.com/Main/history.htm Anyone got any corrections or major additions for him?

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MPH
Might been my interpetation or memory lose since I haven't read the history in a couple years, but I was under the impression that AC only owned Simplicity until 1973, not 83 as stated. Maybe it was the closing of the S.C. plant in 73 that gave me that idea..Fine job Les..MPH

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SmilinSam
I was always told that the Powermax types were only made for 3 years up to but not after 1974' or 75'. Never have seen them in any sales brochures after that any how. Definately not in the 1971, 1977, or 78 full line brouchures, I have those in my collection. Also, only the AC homlites had electric clutches, none of the Simplicity ones had them. The T-8 built by AC 71-73 had hoods and dashes similar to the larger T-10 through T-16. They didn't start looking like the Homesteaders and "System" Simplicitys till Simplicity picked up the production.

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MPH
Sam, the '78 info on the site lists the powr'max as the 19.5hp. Also, info Paul sent in on the 'System 9020' with the black decale on the hood is listed after 'new in '83.' Couldn't find any date on the info, maybe Paul could shed some lite on that.MPH

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SmilinSam
Hmmmmmmmm, my turn for memory lapse. I just found some price sheets I forgot I had listing the 720 and attachments. Its dated July 28 1980. Wonder why my 77 & 78 brochures don't show it?. ..unless they considered it light farm equipment at the time and didn't put it in their Lawn & garden line up. I also found a brochure showing the 9020 in 1974/75

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Dutch
Les – Kent, Based on info in the new History Page, I revised what I had initially posted (see above). The following are comments on the History Page for your consideration. In 1985 the 7100 series was discontinued and for two years there was no Sovereign type tractor. In 1987 Simplicity re-introduced the tractor as the GTH-17, GTH-L to differentiate from the GTH Sunstar? in response to dealer demand. This version used a Kohler a V-Twin OHV engine. I believe the GTH-L used the Kohler flat twin (KT-17). I also believe the Sovereigns made between 1993 and 1997 used the Kohler “Command” OHV engine. The final Sovereign revision came in 1996(1997 model year) with the switch to 18 hp Kohler “Command” OHC engine. At that time a very befitting honor was awarded to the Sovereign, as Simplicity Manufacturing produced it as the “75th Anniversary Special Edition.” I believe the 1997 – 2000 Sovereigns used the OHC “Triad” engines. Several of these special edition models led the anniversary parade in Port Washington, Wisconsin. This parade is listed in the Guinness Book of World records as the “WORLD’S LARGEST TRACTOR PARADE.”

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PhanDad
Les, I appreciate you taking the time to write the history sections. I learn alot there. Thanks. Now a little nit pickin': The reintoduced Sovereign was called the 17GTH-L, it's the one I just picked up with a blown KT17 Series II engine as Dutch stated above. The Anniversary Sovereign came with a Kohler Triad OHC engine. I've read the spec plate on the one at the local Simplicity dealer (new one still for sale). The engine's a model TH18S, spec 54510, Serial #2719500192. The serial number indicates the engine was manufactured in 1997. I also have a "Guide to Simplicity Tractors & Riding Mowers" from 1998 that shows the Sovereign had an 18 Hp Kohler overhead cam engine. Based on a photo of the engine in the tractor, it's also the Triad TH18 engine.

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Les
Just kidding, this kind of discussion is the only way we can get detailed info, it will take me a while to digest it all and work out the details. What do you guys think about the overall scheme? I knew we wanted more detailed info, but I didnt know if we should have separate sections for individual tractor lines or not. What, if anything is left out. I would like to see more info on the smaller tractors, serf, broadmoor, etc. and how they evolved.

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Kent
Since we're "nit-picking": After the 1959 introduction of the 700, the first revision in the series was in 1961, when the 7 hp Briggs motor was replaced by a 7 and ¼ horsepower version (the model 725). In late 1963 the new 9 horsepower “Landlord” model was introduced with a new front frame, bulkhead, dash, and hood. These models are often referred to as “round hoods.” In 1965 a more powerful 10 horsepower engine was installed and called the Landlord 101. In late 1967 the new “square hood” tractors were introduced as the 2110 and 3012 models (1967 and 1968) and the 2210 and 3112 (1969 and 1970). These new models had longer frames than their predecessors. This series also introduced variable speed drive and Vickers hydrostatic transmissions, which both required 4” longer rear frames compared to standard gear drive models. According to the "Made When" chart provided by Simplicity, the 1968 models were the 2210 (short wheelbase) and 3112 (long wheelbase, variable speed), while in 1969 they became the 3210V and 3212 (both were long wheelbase with variable speeds, and the 3212 was also available as a 3212H with a Vickers). This equates to the evolution of the B-110 to the B-210 Allis in the same timeframe... The way it's worded, it's also hard to tell which ones were short wheelbase, and which ones were not... When I was trying to find manuals for my B-210 years ago, Simplicity cross-referenced it to a 3210V... According to the "Made When" the 3210/3212 was only made for one year... http://www.simpletractors.com/made_when/1968-1969.htm

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UCD
My -.02 cents worth. What about the Simplicity 7790 Diesel and the ALLIS Chalmers 920 Diesel tractors with the Lombardini 790cc 18½ hp. two-cylinder Diesel engines. From what I have been told and read these engines were supplied to Simplicity by Briggs & Stratton. At the time, supposedly, Briggs & Stratton owned a share of Lombardini. I bought my 7790 in Feb. 1985 with SN 001194 made in 1984. I believe the years these tractors were made was 1984 thu 1986 the year Briggs & Stratton sold their share in Lombardini.

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Les
OK Kent, you got me on the improper wording. I would like to know how everybody likes the overall theme, which is more important to me than the little details. The way I look at it, the impression someone new gets by reading the history is much more important than old-timers arguing over late 1967 vs. 1968 model year. I will keep working on the little details, but as you all can see, I get a lot of conflicting information, it takes a lot of time to work through it all. Yes, Maynard, you have a good point, that is something I struggle with... just how detailed and where and how do you add the detail. A person visiting for the first time probably just wants a quick overview. That is why I am looking for imput on the best path. When people send me information, that is when I can add the detail. I looked at the literture, its says that the Sovereign used a Kohler OHC engine, not the "Command" so I will make that change along with several other changes as I am able to muddle through.

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