Sovereign, Landlord?

[Ronald Hribar]

I have only been here a little while and feel like a kid in a candy store. I want everything!! I have a 3314 and desire a 7116. And just love the looks of the 4041's 720's etc. My question this time is. I see a 7116 advertised as a Landlord. Wouldn't it be a Sovereign? also in the 3000 series I see the same thing. Does HP. of machine have anything to do if it is a Landlord or Sovereign? Also is $1400 high for a supposedly good running 7116 with only the mowing deck.

[roma3112]

ronald I believe you are right on both accounts as far as the machines being sovereigns. i don't believe that the HP would have anything to do with the machine being 1 model or another. ( i could be wrong). As far as the price of 1,400 if i am not mistaken these machines were built starting in the early 80's and like anything depending on the condition it may or may be worth what he is asking. Would i pay that prob not i think that if you check out the machine and it is ok you should make him an offer. If the machine was a garage queen it it would be worth it in terms of what you would get today for 1,400 I am sure some of the guys here can give you a more definite answer but i am sure they will tell you to eveluate the machine first. good luck john

[Salthart]

My Grandmother just bought an Agco 918H. THere is very littledifference between this and the 7116 other than engine. The dealer we got it from still has a few ( I understand Simplicity no longer makes a BGB tractor ) Even 1 or 2 with power steering ! 5,000 was the price. So yes, I'd think if its in good shape the 7116 tractor is a good buy at that price. Check out every piece that turns for slop and or leaks. Crank bearings, Throttle shaft, BGB input and both sides of the output shafts, The cone clutch bearings, Rock the tractor side to side while looking at the bottoms of the axle seals.. If there is wear in the tube ot the bearings you will see the seal lip flatten and get thin. This is different from the tube sliding back and forth and the seal lip moving in and out a little..Wheel bearings on the front. Free travel in the steering. Almost any will have some lost motion but the point is finding where. Ball joints are nickel/dime stuff but steering box trouble is not. The only way to check a mower deck is mow with it to see that it cuts even..Very few BGB tractor mower decks ever get warped but you DO NOT want one that is ! And then remove the deck and check for roller and bar wear, Rust, missing stone guard, And make sure the bat wing is in place ( Baffle ). If you know a mechanic, Borrow a Manometer and check the engine. This is a very telling test for ring and bore condition etc. I'm sure others will add things I have missed. Oh and BTW, Hydro's bring better money around here..LOL I don't remember ever seeing anything BUT hydros in the 7100s but if I'm wrong, they will let you know.. heheheh Good luck !

[Ronald Hribar]

I see you have the new Sovereign,so as an owner of the newer iron, do you feel it is not as well made as the 3314 vwhich was made in the early 70's? and by the same token the 707's and such heavier duty yet? I am looking for a good hydro with hydraulic lift.And it seems it was available with either the earlier models or the later models. And for the amount of yard i have, i could get along with my lawnboy and a good shovel. It is definetly a case of I want.

[roma3112]

Ron Just about to start work I will fill you in on what i think of the machine when i can sneak to a PC. I got it new/old stock this past winter other than the 6,300$ price tag so far so good

[Brent_Baumer]

In the 3400/7000 and 7100 series sims, landlords and soveriegns are the same machines except for the engine horsepower and the width of the tires. Also, depending on horsepower, different trannies were available. There was not a 7010 hydro for example. You can read about most of this on the simplicity page on simpletractors. Generally, 3410's, 7010's, 7012's 7112's etc were landlords. 3414's, 7014's etc were barons, and the 3415, 3416, 7016's 7116's and up are soveriegns. Pretty much all the same tractor though.

[thedaddycat]

If you spend some time with a parts manual for the Landlord and Soverign tractors, you will find that most of the parts are the same from one machine to the other. They match right down to the part numbers. The major exception is engine size, with the Soverign having a more powerful engine and the wider tires. There was only one Landlord(at least through the late 70's) that had a 12 horse engine(the 2012) while the rest were 10 horse or lower(pre-LL 101). The Barons were the Mid-Level machines and the Soverigns were the big boys up until the Pow'r Max size ones showed up.... While the hydro trannys were usually found on the bigger tractors, I have a 3310 H Landlord so they were available at least on that model Landlord......

[Brent_Baumer]

Kirk, did you mean the 7012? Pretty certain the 7012's were called landlords. I pass one every day on the way to work. Hasn't moved in weeks. Just waiting on the guy to be home to see if it can become mine.

[thedaddycat]

I'm pulling this info from the Simplicity 7000 Repair Manual, TP-503A, 5/77. All Mfg. Nos. are prefixed by 990 so you will just see the last three digits except for the 1690XXX tractors..... It lists the following as Landlord tractors and engines: 168,169-7 hp 232,235,269,270-7 1/4 hp 308,314-9 hp 350,351,395,396-10 hp 399,400(these two are the 2012 man/hydro lift)-12 hp 432,433,496,497,568,569,653,657,755,756,757,1690016,1690204-10 hp Baron tractors are listed as these: 979, 980, 1690015, 1690232-13 hp These are what it lists as Soverigns: 434,435,494,495,499,500,570,571,572,573-12 hp 654, 655-14 hp 758, 759-15 hp 871, 872, 1690006, 1690086, 1690202, 1690203-16 hp Along the Landlord line, the FDT/RBT split occurs with the 653/657 tractors which are the 3310 models. With the Soverigns it is the 654/655 tractors which are the 3314 models. This corresponds to the 1971 production run..... The Soverign updated to the cone clutch and slightly more power with the 3415 models(758/759), then jumped up another horse with the 3416 models(871/872)in 1973. The 7012 was not introduced until 1978, after the issue of my reference manual. As I ststed before, "at least through the late 70's"... The 1978 models were the(these are all 1690 prefixed) the 333(7010-6), 352(7012 H), 337(7014 S), 341(7016-6), 342(7016 H), and the 366(7018 H). This information was culled from the "Made When" tables, which lists earlier tractors with names(Broadmoor, Landlord, Soverign, etc...) but does not show any given name for these models of tractor. Didn't they go to just calling them "System XXXX" about that time period?? BTW, I know how you feel. There's a 3314 H just sitting there with the engine covered by a garbage bag(it's sitting next to the tractor), hood open out in the front yard.... I must have stopped by there a half dozen times and finally caught the guy home. We talked for a while and he told he he used to be a Simplicity dealer, had everything for the tractor just hadn't put it together yet. That was about four months ago and it sits there still.... Maybe I'll go back it the spring and try for it again, by then he may just want it gone......

[Salthart]

Ronald, As far as compairing the new 918H to the older machines..( My 3415H that was my grandfathers ) I don't know much as yet about the V-twin Kohler. It has only mowed a few times after the break in oil was changed and it was only me doing the mowing once. As far as power goes, If the tractor were mine and someone offered me a brand spanking new syncro-balanced briggs 15 or 16 for the Kohler, THey would be the owners of a new kohler. But its really not fair to judge the kohler yet as all the parts are new and tight. Just a new belt till its broken in cost horsepower IMO. About the only other things that matters are the hydro pump ( 3415 is a vickers ) Which were it possible I would trade it for a Sunstrand right now. the Sunstrand is not as "Crisp" as the Vickers but it does have the pressure taps from the pre-pump and I have 4 or 5 good Sunstrand units in my shop now so replacing them is not as big a deal. The rear end on the 3415H has a true neutral in it. So you can roll it and never harm the pump. Far better IMO. The starter/Gen don't compair in starting ability or charging with the newer engines. ( I do believe most of the stators types had a few choices in output with the base being 10a, just like the S/G ) Last thing, Headlights.. The 4 headlights on the 3415 are cute and really help make the looks of the tractor. But the 2 headlight set up is a far cry better IMO. So there are reasons to like them both. But the older ones are a sure bet IMO.. Nothing tells like time..

[roma3112]

Marty I would tend to agree with most of your points, I for one have not noticed too much difference in power between my 12hp syncro and the vtwin Kohler, I would not compare them in terms of durability. In that catagory the old iron would win without a doubt. I do agree that the vickers seems to have more pep than the sunstrand. As far as overall durability i still like the BGB tractors,over some of the newer simplicity models. If i were to stick to an "in brand critique" i would be about neutral in my opinion of old vs new. If anything i lean towards my 3112h only for the simple fact that i am still weary about scratching my new sovereign :(

[Ronald Hribar]

No wonder I am confused on different models my 3314H which has the 16Hp briggs has the Sovereign on it's front bumper. And I would like a latter model with the Sunstrand Hydro ffor it's hydraulic options. Although i have heard that the newer units have a whine to them That is why I thought i would get everything i desire in a 7116 or an AC916 hydro. The power of the Briggs with gear starting, hydulic power source. Think i would really like power steering And while I ike the 4 headlight systm on the 3314 prefer the look of the 7116, actually like the Ac a little better. I would definetely would like to keep my 3314H and add a 7116 to the stable. Do not think i could convince the wife of that . Thank you all for all the information and opinions that were offerred. Going to continue to improve my 3314 and look for the 7116 and dream about the 720 style of tractor

[Al]

Hi, I agree with most of the previous posts. Three things come to mind on these families. 7000 Sim 700 AC and below. The PTO for the mower neither idler is anchored solid and both pivot together. This creates a problem if you want to drive a snowblower from the reat PTO. Need to use the front clutch snowblower drive. 7100 & 900 series the Rear mower drive idler is anchored solid to the frame and the front is spring loaded. This allows the use of the center PTO for the snowblower application. 2. The frames are longer on the late tractors, providing more real estate for engine options. 3. The later hoods are longer related to 2. The frame stamping for the "Sovereigns" is different from the previous GTHL and 7100 versions. My 2 cents worth and its free, value accordingly. Al Eden

[Ronald Hribar]

AL I understood all your points except or the last one. The Sovereign frame is different from the 7100 series. That sounds like why I started this topic. I understood that the 7000 and 7100 series was longer than the 3300 and 3400 series. Was there a 3000 and 3100 Series? Did the shorter frame continue under a different model number? And the newer Sovereign used what frame? or was it the same frame with provisions for the twins? I don not mean to irritate anybody, Just really eager to learn about The old tractors.

[Al]

Hi, The 7100 frame was compatible with all of the Kohler K and KT engines and the 32 cubic inch Briggs. When Simplicity went to the Kohler CH in around 92 or 93, the frame needed to be revised. The frame as stamped at that time had stiffening ribs about 1 1/2 wide and 5/16" deep stamped in the at an angle across the bottom of the frame. If you put a Command in that frame without addressing these ribs, the rear engine mounting bolts go through the down ramps on the ribs. If the Command is bolted in this frame without addressing this issue, the mounting ears will crack the crankcase and destroy the block. The result is the tooling was changed and the frame for the Command has a different bottom than the earlier tractors. Our first repower on a 7112 about 8 years ago we made tapered wedge shaped pieces and welded them to the frame. This filled the stiffening ribs. We then turned the frame over and welded Wedge C shaped pieces on the bottom side to provide a flat surface for the heads of the bolts. Then after we were done welding we turned the frame back over and ground the built up pads flat until we had the frame flat to the Engine OEM requirments for flatness. This is a very time consuming process and with all the welding very difficult to get everything back to flat. We now take a different approach to the frame problem because you can't sell a kit to a homeowner and have them weld up the frame and get if flat front to back, side to side and diagonally. Only the Sovereign frame with either the Command or the TH engine is compatible with the CH engine. TDhe rest need the rib problem addressed. My 2 cents worth and its free, value accordingly. Al Eden