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hufhouse

Does this sound like something's wrong?

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hufhouse
I need some advice/counsel. Saturday, it was nearly 0F degrees outside and didn't get above 10F degrees all day. I went out in the morning to start my 7117 because I wanted to "touch up" the driveway. It would only turn over slowly a couple of times. I sat on the seat and tried to start it about three times, and figured that there just wasn't enough juice in the cold battery to get the starter turning against the cold SAE30 oil. I pulled the tractor out of my storage barn with the truck, then jumped the tractor battery with the truck. This time, I tried to start it (WITHOUT sitting on the seat). It still wouldn't turn over more than once or twice. So I dragged (literally) the tractor into my heated garage to warm it up. Once the tractor warmed up, it still wouldn't start (turning the key without sitting down on the seat) but turned slowly. I hooked the truck up to it again with jumper cables, and it still didn't want to start. However, I was getting a little tired of standing, so I sat down on the seat. When I did, the next time I turned the ignition key, it fired up like it was hooked up to six batteries. My questions is this...if the tractor is supposed to be able to start without me sitting on the seat, why did it make a difference when I sat down? If it is NOT supposed to start without me sitting on the seat, then why can I turn it over a couple of times? Or, was it just coincidence that it started so quickly when I sat down? Is there a problem brewing or was this just a coincidence?

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Dutch
I don't believe in coincidences, but even if there is a seat switch it "shouldn't" act like that. With a seat switch it should either crank or not crank, unless there is a voltage loss but not a complete loss. But that still doesn't seem probable to me. Have you checked the oil? Sounds like maybe one cylinder had a fuel hydraulic lock that cleared because of the repeated attempts to crank.

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hufhouse
It's hydro. And, no, I don't usually depress the clutch pedal. However, I did disengage the hydro to move the tractor out of the barn. The hydro was very frozen up, though, because the wheels wouldn't turn when I moved the tractor. I LITERALLY dragged it into my garage using a strap wrapped around my waist! I looked like one of those strong-man competitions you see on ESPN. I don't know what a 7117 weighs with a blade and about 100 lbx of wheel weights, but I can tell you it isn't light...especially when the wheels aren't turning.

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Kent
I have to clutch my HB-216 (with a Sundstrand) to start it in the wintertime. Otherwise it turns over VERY slow. Note that the starter is still required to spin the driveshaft and BGB, even with the clutch pedal depressed...

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UCD
Even with a Hydrostatic you should push in the clutch the belts are cold as well as the oil in the Hydro pump. This all so makes it easier on the engine bearings when it is cold. The 30wt oil in the engine did not help in it turning over. You should consider 5w-30 synthetic. On my 7790 (Sundstrand) pushing in the clutch will make the difference in weather it starts or not. I am using 0w-40 Mobil 1 in it. On the HB-116 (Sundstrand) the starter belt slips a little (no Sam I have not replaced it yet) pushing in the clutch it will spin over good and using choke it will start 2nd or 3rd time over. The HB-212 (Vickers) will start with out using choke at -20° 0n 3rd or 4th turn but by pushing in the clutch will start on first turn. I am using 5w-30 Mobil 1 in them.

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johnmonkey
I'm thinking the switch under the seat was sort of "halfway depressed" because of the cold. It was allowing some currant through but not all of the currant. There may have been some other mechanical part that froze that freed itself up when you heated,jumped, towed the tractor. John H

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PatRarick
quote:
Originally posted by dutch
Have you checked the oil? Sounds like maybe one cylinder had a fuel hydraulic lock that cleared because of the repeated attempts to crank.
quote:
Originally posted by hufhouse
I did check the oil before I started it. It was well within the checked area, almost full.
I believe what dutch is referring to, is to check if the oil is overfull, or is thin and/or smells like gasoline. A fuel hydraulic lock is when gasoline leaks into a cylinder while the engine is sitting. Liquid gasoline cannot be compressed like vaporized gasoline and air. If gasoline has leaked into the cylinder and you try to turn the engine over, the piston locks from attempting to compress the liquid fuel. Eventually, the pressure will force the gasoline past the rings and into the crankcase. When the fuel drains down, the engine will turn over slow, or partially, until the remaining liquid gasoline is compressed, or enough of the fuel has drained from the cylinder to allow the engine to turn over normally. Pat

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D-17_Dave
I got to get in on this one. First of all there seems to be an electrical problem. The only diff. in setting in the seat is to depress the clutch, witch will certainly help. however if you can start it without being seated you do not have the starter circut looped through the seat so it would have no bearing on it cranking. If you connected it to another bat. ie the truck and still no help you'd better check the bat. cables and the place where the ground cable connects to the engine. Also the cables can deteriait inside the crimped or molded end at the bat. You can check this by catching it slow cranking and while you try to spin it over grab the cable near the end and give it a good twisting. Either cable at either end may be the culprit. As well as a sol. that has some moister in it, freezing over the contacts or just a bad sol. But my money is on the cables. As for the oil visc. Remember the rateing on the oil reads like some 5W-30-- It will not be thicker than 30 wieght and no thinner than 5 wieght, under MOST conditions. Or at least thats how it was explained to me. Anyway it sounds like when you sat in the seat you probablely jarred the weak connection and it kicked off. Good luck, Dave.

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dogboy
The cable ends as Dave said can be a real problem ,had a car strand me years ago in the middle of nowhere,now i know. not a big fan of the seat switches either, had one fail on a "Green thing" i used on a job ,finally figured that out and by-passed it-not recommened.

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UCD
5w-30 oil is no thicker than 5 weight when cold and no thinner than 30 weight when hot. It is more involved than that but it is the easiest way to explain it. 5 weight will flow easier at 0° than straight 30 weight. Multi weight oil is made to be thinner when cold and be thicker when hot. I agree with the corrosion on the connections and in the cables. A cold battery has less cranking amps than a warm one. A battery going bad will have even less. That and bad connections/cables and thick oil will add up to a no start condition. Clean the battery terminals and the connections where the ground cable connects to the engine and the positive cable connects to the starter. Check the crimped ends where they crimp on to the cables for green corrosion. Have your battery load tested. Change the oil at least to a multi grade, synthetic is even better.

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MPH
IMO you are lucky it didn't start at zero with 30wt oil in it, at best you would have lost many hours off the engine before you had any lub action. 90wt gear lub in the BGB is about like gungrease in the cold. I don't claim too know much guys,but I've spend some time dealing with mech. things in the cold. If your gonna run 'em in the winter, spend the few extra bucks on syn lub. As a reminder, here 30wt oil out in the cold...

90wt gearlube, this new oil

-18 was as warm as I took any pictures, maybe if it warms up a bit I'll clean the snow off and check it all again, need to do that before springtime anyway

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D-17_Dave
Thanks for the clearification Maynard. I knew when I typed that, that it didn't sound right. But I couldn't put my finger on the problem. As for the syn oils, I,ve used and seen (maybe not all of them) but a bunch and I'm one true believer in the capability's and have no problem recomending them. The extra protection is easily justifies the extra cost.

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MikeES
I don't know of any 7117 that had a seat switch. They had a hydro-neutral, and a PTO off switch. If it has a seat switch it was either added later or a requirement for a foreign country or something.

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