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BrownA

Simplicity 700 or 725 whats different

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BrownA
How can you tell the differance between the two tractors. I picked up what I believe is a 700 but it's missing the hood and grille. The Briggs engine numbers are ( model 19 type 706035 serial 627109 ). Are there any tell tale signs besides decals ? I realize the 725 has the 7 1/4 hp engine but I think the engine model numbers don't differentiate between either a 7 hp or 7 1/4 hp ? Any ideas ? Thanks, Alan
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thedaddycat
LOL Well, I guess the first thing is look at the gas tank. If it's more squared with ridges on the end panels then it's more likely to be a 700 or Wonder Boy 700. If it's more oval with rounded edges then it's more likely a 725. Let's see, what else.... No pulley guard mounted on fender for right side BGB pulley could be early 725, pan seat would definitely be late 725. Look at the center PTO, right front spindle, shift handle, heck just post a bunch of pics and I'll pick at them for details.....

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BrownA
So far it does have the square shaped gas tank with the ridges on the edges. I will have to check out the other stuff. The reason I was asking about the engines is because I have a model W walker that says 7 1/4 hp, BUT if you look at the engine numbers this is what they show, Briggs model 19 type 706044 ser. 654846. Those numbers are suppose to be on a 7 1/4 hp, of course who knows if it's original ? In my opinion it looks original. Now if you compare those numbers to the engine numbers on the 700 or 725 which I am not sure which tractor I have it has the following engine numbers, Briggs model 19 type 706035 serial 627109. ?????????? Investigation to be continued

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MPH
According to this chart. http://www.edgeta.org/mdate3.htm. Your engine was made in Jan of 1961. Think the early 725's still had Modle 19's in them. Mine looked to be all OEM and was built in Nov of 61.

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thedaddycat
Here's some more tidbits for you.... The 700 was supposedly a 7 hp and the 725 was supposedly a 7 1/4 hp engine. The early 725s used the Model 19, but the later one used the 19 D if I'm not mistaken. I have what's left of a long steering cloumn 725 that had a 19 D. I contacted Brggs about the difference between the Model 19 used in a 700 and one used in a 725 and how would you determine which was which. Well, the answer from Briggs was that according to the information available, ALL Model 19 engines were 7 1/4 hp.....

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Allis_B12
On edgeta.org, the "D" indicates that the PTO ran clockwise. I wouldn't think that would make an extra 1/4 hp. It's probably just a clarification, I doubt the Model 19 runs CCW. None of these engines produce what is advertised. Compression loss, age, power transfer though the transmission, and the constant loads of the BGB and generator will all subtract from the rated number. In addition, these engines are uncorrected, or "gross" hp. They were likely bench tested under perfect conditions. That's inaccurate and different from today's SAE net power numbers in cars. 1/4 hp probably doesn't make much of a difference, I don't know why Briggs claimed that rating instead of rounding down. Bottom line, I'd think differences between 700s and 725s are age, the Simplicity MFG and model numbers, and the visible differences Kirk pointed out, like gas tank, seat, steering column.

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ReedS
I've noticed that there are subtle differences between the 700 & 725. I have parts to 2 of the 700's plus some spares. One difference betweem the two is in the grille frame, the 700's had no access to the point covers whereas the 725's had a notch and a cover plate. Another diffeence is that the 725's started using taper roller bearings instead of bushings in the front wheels. 700's also had a straight shift rod(at the knob)whereas the 725's had an angled rod. These along with the other noted differances should help you make the correct identificatiion.
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thedaddycat
I think that the older engines were tested on a dynomometer to determine the power rating, but today's computer driven engineering would (I'm guessing) calculate the theoretical heat value of the fuel used and come up with a "HorsePower" number. I've heard it expressed on this site that the old Briggs 16 CI single would rate about even with a modern 20 HP engine for how much REAL work it will do....... Of course this is all theory and conjecture on my part...... lol Another thing... Not to put too fine a point on it, but S/G load, BGB/drivetrain friction losses, etc have nothing to do with the engine power or rating but will be a power load that will reduce power available to do real work like driving a tiller, mower, etc....

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thedaddycat
Here is a Wards Squire, notice that the shift lever is straight. This is one thing that the 700 has that the 725 does not...

Here's a link to when I was the one asking the questions........ http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=10569&SearchTerms=700,or,725?

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MPH
Not sure if its still done this way but back in the days when I used to go to Mead Nebr for thier tractor test day, horse power on farm tractors was rated engine horsepower dyno tested engine only, PTO hp, which was the power that made it that far, and drawbar hp, where the pony's meet the dirt, always less then the other two.
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UCD
This is the Engine info for 1959 to 1965 straight from the horses mouth. "Simplicity Engine Infomation Manual". The infomation in this manual is from 1957 to 2003. According to Simplicity the only year the 19D was used in the 725 was in 1963. The 23D was only used in the LandLord 1964. The Simplicity 101 in 1965/66 used 10hp 243431. As for Allis chalmers I do not have that info. Take it for what it is worth.

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thedaddycat
Here are a few pics of my Wonder Boy 700 to go with the information about the 700/725 differences... This shows the straight shifter and the center PTO. As far as I can find, the WB700/700 were the only ones to use this style PTO, which is on both of my Wonder Boys.

The grill frame lacks the removable point cover access panel.

Front wheels used bushings instead of tapered bearings.

Though common to both 700 and 725, the short axle tube is one way to tell if a tranny has been swapped out. The original older ones have the axle tube that just goes to the case instead of all the way out to the hub.

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