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I GIVE UP!!!!!!!!!


deerhunter

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deerhunter
I made a post the last 2 weeks about my 7116 burning up condensors. Today I tried cutting with a new B&S condensor and I got about 25 min into it and the condensor went out. I'm all out of answers, I even called a Simplicity dealer and he was puzzled. Where on the site can I find a wiring diagram for this thing? If anyone has anymore suggestions I'm all ears. I just bought it thinking it would take place of my worn out 716H but it's the only thing I can reley on. If I can't figure this out it may end up in the classifieds & I'll have to take a loss!!
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maxtorman1234
If you could find a wiring diagram, the first thing i would redo, is the wiring. Just dont give up, it'll eventually work. Right now i have a briggs model 19, and it keeps acting up. No idea waht;s causing it, but i guss i'll have to tear it apart and see if somethings wrong inside it. Been fooling with it about 2 months, and nothing's improved yet.
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Get a new condenser. Try closing up the gap on the points. Excess gap produces excess voltage and may be causing the condenser problem.
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Bad points will make a condensor go bad and a bad condensor will burn points. Make sure there is no oil on the points and that they are clean and flat and gaped to specs.
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ucd makes agood point about bad points ruening a condensir and a bad condensir ruening the points i hav fownd this to be tru also. i wood also add that a broken or chafed wire can couse the condensir or points to go bad clint
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Water in the Fuel will make the engine pop and crack sometimes, just like the ignition breaking down...
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10HorseMan
Either the water in the fuel, or the points and condenser most likely need to be replaced at the same time. :D
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deerhunter
I've already ruled out the water in the gas theory. I've drained & changed everything. When I put a new condensor on it runs fine for 25 min to an hour. I've even changed the condensor immeadiatley and the problem goes away. I DID not change the point or check for oil on them. I did, however set the point gap to .020 should If no oil in present on the old points, should I set the gap on the new ones closer? Thank You all for the Help!!!!!!!!
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Don't touch the points contacts with your fingers. The oil on your finger tips will cause them to burn to.
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Don't give up, there has to be a reason this is happening and a solution. Might be the primary winding had shorted across to the secondary sending too much juice to the pionts and burning up the con. You might try 2 con. or just change the coil. I know thats easier said than done, but anything is better than parking or worse-- selling it off.
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........ or you could install a $12 electronic trigger and eliminate the points / condensor problems altogether.
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deerhunter
I've heard that if I go to the electronic ignition I may need to have the flywheel re-polorized, Is this true on the 16hp briggs?
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quote:
Originally posted by deerhunter
I've heard that if I go to the electronic ignition I may need to have the flywheel re-polorized, Is this true on the 16hp briggs?
No..... That's not true. The electronic trigger is not the same as a Magnetron. An electronic trigger is about the size of your thumbnail and can be attached anywhere on the engine. It can even be installed inside the point's cover so no one can see it. Some of these guys don't like them, but I don't really know why. I use them with great success. $12 parts..... 12 minutes labor...... back in operation...... What more can I say?
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I'm only curious if re-setting the point gap, which I was guessing was too great, actually saved the condensers. After all the years that tractor's been around, the original system has proved itself to be durable and reliable. Not maintenance free but still a good system. The best solution, in my opinion, is Dutch's for a permanent easy fix.
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powerking_one
Tim, I would have to agree with Dave (D-17_Dave) on the shorted primary to secondary winding theory (intermittent, heat or vibration sensitive). If this is what's happening, then the primary voltage could be spiking way higher than the condenser is rated for (~~400 volts). When a condenser (capacitor) has it's rating exceeded, it's like little lightning bolts blasting through it causing it to short or open up. A magneto ignition system is so simple, there really isn't much else it could be. Regards, Tom(PK)
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goatfarmer
Doesn't adjusting the point gap greater or smaller than specs change timing?
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Kenny, changeing the piont gap does effect the timeing, however I don't think it changes much. Understanding the sroke of the plunger it doesn't take much to close the gap and the pionts fail to open completely and will soon burn, open to much will delay the timeing and well, we don't want that as it would effect the power and performance of the engine. I've never put a light on the system but I can't iagineit would change it much on these.
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I think your missing the point Dave..Forgive me if I presume to much, But we have a machine that has a problem. Normal repairs don't seem to affect it for long and this leaves me to think that something in hard parts is messed up. If that is the case, then changing the point dwell may bring things back in line. Let me give you an example. The magnet passing the laminations creates a current. DC and DC won't pass through a coil unless it osilates IE the points. But, if the points close to soon, And the magnets have not passed far enough to make enough current to produce an arc under compression then retarding the point timing can maybe allow the magnet to pass far enough. I wasn't offering this as a permanent fix. In fact its a sure fire way to know something is wrong... Another case senario, If the windings in the primary short to themselves, you get shorter windings thus less current. Being that the engine runs long enough to get warm before having trouble this may be the case. But if it is, once the ignition starts to break down, there are a few clues he could look for. Pulling the running machine into a dark garage he could look at the points. If he sees arcing, He will know the condenser isn't holding back enough. If he don't see arcing he could shut the engine down long enough to remove the lead from the condenser and try to start it then. If it smooths up any, then its a pretty good bet that its not making enough current for whatever reason. ( Thats my bet BTW ) And Hunter, No need give up bud.. If you can't beat em, join em...Borrow the coil from your Kohler. Run a wire from the points to the - or NEG side of the coil and another wire from the + or Pos side of the coil to an alligator clip that you can hook to a hot lead.. If you make it past the normal 25 minutes you know you have coil trouble... And I'm sorry if it seemed my sugestion of opening the point gap sounded like I was offering it for a permanet fix.. That was not what I intended...Troubleshooting was what it was all about..
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Hi, Adjusting the points does change the timing. This is how you time a Kohler with the battery ignition. We have seen a few problems with the Briggs points the last couple of years. Not a lot. I would put in a new set of points. Do not touch the contact surfaces with your fingers. BEFORE you put a feeler guage between them clean it with a solvent like electric contact cleaner, brake cleaner, carb cleaner or lacquer thinner to remove any traces of oil that may be present. Next do not touch the guage with your fingers. Then check your points. If you suspect oil on the points, a common problem, take a file card etc, put one of the above solvents on it and drag it between the points, next a dry card. There is a good chance there may be one shorted turn in the primary of the coil. Another common problem on these engines is the camshaft. If we rebuild one of these engines and it has points we usually replace the camshaft if the ignition lobe has any wear. The shoulder on the cam that pushes the point plunger gets worn off, not a lot, but since it is driven 2:1 it affects the crank timing twice as much as the amount it is changed on the cam. This causes the points to open late making the timing late, and the magnets further past the pole pieces on the mag. When this situation exists, we usually set the points with the engine running. We start the engine and screw the points in until the engine degrades with the engine idling. Next we screw them out to get the same effect, keeping tract of exactly how many turns it changes, then turn them back in 1/2 this amount. This will usually fix engines that don't like to run well at .020. The point gap will likly be less than .020. One other thing that can contribute to your problem is the ground on the coil. Sand under the mounting screws, particularly the one with the ground lead. Rust on ends of the legs of the coil and the magnets has no effect on the spark. Sanding the magnets or the ends of the legs does nothing. It does not affect the magnetic field. This was covered in the Briggs factory school and was one of the questions on the Briggs Master Service Tech Test. One other thing I saw in one of these engines that we could get running right and it would miss and sputter, sometimes run right, was the main bearings. The flywheel was moving up and down and the air gap at the coil was changing about .020. New main bearing fixed it. Just some thoughts I had don't know it they will help, but they are free. On a similar but unrelated subject. I have seen Kohler battery ignition coils that the engine would run great slow and would not rev up above maybe 3000 and had low power. Putting a second condensor would "wake" them up. The points would also have a lot of arcing. When this happens there is usually a shorted turn in the primary and it lowers the Q and the inductance of the coil. If you see this symptom in a battery ignition replace the coil. Another thing that we see is people going to the parts house and getting a 12v automotive coil and installing it. These are 8 volt coils and must have a ballast resistor to use them. If a ballast resistor is used, the condensor MUST still be on the - term of the coil as in a regular installation. I have probably thrown away 40 of these wrong coils from Kohlers and Harley Davidson Gold cars for this reason. Kohler and Golf Car coils are wound with extra turns in the primary and are designed to be used on 12v without a resistor. People tried to sve a buck and in the end still had to buy the correct coil plus the labor for finding it. When you troubleshoot a problem like this it is easy to be misled, when nothing has been changed you can work with the system. When a bunch of things have been changed then you have a multitude of possibilities for other causes in addition to the original problem. The problem with the automotive coils is they are 8 volts for improved starting. They run about 8 volts normally, but when the starter is engaged a bypass circuit feeds 12v directly to the coil around the resistor. When the engine is cranking in cold weather the battery voltage drops to 8 or 9 volts. This feeds this voltage directly to the coil, keeping the spark hot otherwise the voltage to the coil through the resistor would be down to about 5 or 6 volts. As soon as the starter drops out, the voltage is supplied to the coil through the resistor and it is dropped to 8v again. The resistor increases resistance when it gets hot. This lowers the voltage to the coil and maintains a fairly constant current. When the resistance is cold it gets less resistance and raises the voltage to the coil, drawing more current which heats the resistor dropping the voltage etc. This is why it is called a ballast. Nuff said. My thoughts, they are free value accordingly. Al Eden
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deerhunter
Well thank you all for the valuable input, but now I'm going to throw another wrecnh into the problem. The other day when I made the post I was cutting it started missing I ASSUMED that the condensor went out again. I pulled it in the shed & used the 716H without making any checks. Today I fired it up and I had no miss. I checked the points for oil and there was none. I started thinking about what all went on the onther day and remembered that it was a very hot day and I remebered thinking how the briggs seemed to run much hotter than the kohler on my 716H. I then took note to the cooling fins. They did not look to have anything built up in them, but I blew them out real good with the compressor. I fired it back up & it ran fine. I mowed for about 1 hour with out a problem. I shut it down went in the house for lunch. Fired it back up mowed the rest of my lot which took about another 1/2 hour and I had no problems. I did not change anything, but it does seem as though the briggs is running hot. There is some rust build up on the cooling fins. Now I'm thinking that I either have a wire intermittently shorting to ground or the thing just got to hot the other day. Todays temp was low 70's, the other day it was mid 80's I'll just keep cutting and trying, My only fear is if it did start missing because the enginbe was to hot, what kind of long term damage will this cause, and if my cooling fins are fine, then why is it running to hot???????
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Hi Tim, I had the shields off the engine last year when it had no spark and they were clean. Do you remember me talking about how I was getting a short form the mag. I then blew out around the insulated screw under the main shield and it suddenly showed an open. I wonder if that is causing problems again. I am spumped on this one because I know how easy it starts(I assume it's still easy starting) & how well it ran before this problem. Dan
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deerhunter
Dan, I do recall you talking about the short at the mag. When you say a short from the mag, I'm assuming that you mean from the spark plug wire to ground? Correct? Not exactly sure what you mean by insulating screw, but once I get in there I'm sure I'll understand. Whcih shield do you consider the main shield? I'm assuming that I need to pull the motor to remove all the shields, Correct? Pulling it doesn't bother me, It's just the drive shaft wiring & carb connections, and then the 4 mounting bolts. I'm going to run it again this week & see what happens, as I said it ran great on Monday when I mowed and it's like getting on a Cadilac compared to the 716H, the only thing that bothers me is that it just seems to run hot. Was it the same for you? Yes, it does and continues to start very easily, even when I had the bad condensor on it
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