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BGB Removal Time--Estimates?


BigSix

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Hi all: Given my miserable ruination of my walkbehind Ariens snowblower, (discussed in another thread) it occurs to me to try to get my recently-acquired 725 (Mfg. # 990270) with snowblower up and running, especially since I acquired a "garage" just this past Monday (a 20' x 9.5' x 8' shipping container). I know the steering sector piece is loose on the shaft, and am considering a quickie tackweld to stabilize that until warmer climes and a proper repair, but I have BGB problems as well. Specifically, the "gear shaft flange" on the Bevel Gear Box input shaft is rotating partially around the shaft, (I'm not using the tractor at all, as a result) and I don't yet know if it's the flange or the keyway in the shaft that's shot. I'm hoping it's the flange, and my questions are: 1. Can someone estimate how tuff and how many hours it actually takes, on average, to get the tractor split down to the extent necessary to pull this flange? (I have the factory manual and it doesn't look that bad, though I am slow, so I'll triple whatever time estimate you pro's give me....) 2. Is the flange made out of significantly softer stock than the shaft, so that it's quite likely that the flange is bad but has not ruined the slot in the BGB shaft? 3. Is there any reliable way to determine if the damage is limited to the flange itself, or if the BGB input shaft's keyway is also damaged, before I even split the tractor and pull the flange? (Because, if so, I might wait for warmer weather, if I knew the damage involved the shaft itself....) 4. Is tackwelding the BGB input shaft to the flange as bad an idea as I think it is? I assume this would detemper the shaft and place the whole assy. out of balance, even with roughly-equal-sized tack welds on both sides of the shaft? Has anybody done this and lived to tell? Wouldn't it ruin the bearings in the BGB if it were out of balance? 5. If the shaft is shot, I know it's possible to have an identical key cut (or "broached"?) on the opposite side of the shaft, though I've not yet found a machine shop with the capability of working on such a small diameter shaft. My question is, must I remove the BGB shaft for this machinework, or can I simply present the shop with the whole BGB and have them cut the new slot without removing the shaft? 6. If I must remove the BGB shaft, is this a big deal? I've never done any "cog work" but the directions do seem straight forward. 7. Is is necessary to order new seals and shims, or can they be reused? (I plan to make a new cover gasket out of gasket material, as I have a set of gasket punches and I've made gaskets before.) 8. How long does it take one of you gurus to pull out and reinstall the BGB input shaft? (As I say, I'll at least triple your estimates---lol). Thanks--I'm just trying to decide if I want to get into this or go upstate and recover the old Yardman Sno-Bird I dissed so badly in the previous post on the Ariens snow blower. (I should add that I liked the Sno-Bird until I used the Airens, and it has been a very durable, loyal machine, just not as effective or convenient to use). Peter
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maxtorman1234
Estimated bgb removal time, for me is 1-2.5 HRS. Sometimes if everything goes well, i can have 1 repaired and back in in that time also.
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If you are refering to the drive shaft flange, all of them that I have seen are made of cast iron. I just rebuilt two bevel gear boxes in the past two week and that inputshaft cost me $58.00. You could have it broached but you more than likely would have to take it apart. If you decide to take the bevel gear box apart clean the shafts and check them with a micrometer. I haven`t taken a BGB apart yet that didn`t need the inputshaft replaced. Either thats my luck or just the junk that I have been buying lately. I think that the weakest part of the BGB are the front needle bearing that they use on the inputshaft wears out(more than likely do to no preventive maintenance). You don`t realize it until it is to late and you have to end up dumping $350.00 in them to get it running again but you are good to go for along time. I would not reuse the old seals or the bearings as far as that goes, I think I had around $70.00 in bearings and seals. Hopefully you won`t have to replace both gears and shafts as I did. I think actual time I had involved in it was 6 or 8 hours start to finish.
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I only rebuilt 1 and it took about 6-8 hours as RayS mentioned. I workred slow also as this was my first. I would recommend new gaskets and bearings and those cheap rings that hold things on the shaft. I hope this helps. JH
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The 9-1-1970 Allis Chalmers dealers series flat rate manual under Bevel Gear Box gives four hours and twenty minutes to remove from tractor,disassembly,inspect parts,reassemble replacing necessary parts, adjust backlash,reinstall on tractor. Oh, and the price table for labor charge rate per hour only goes up to $7.00 per hour.Ah the good old days.;)
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On a 7000 or 7100 series I have my removal time down to about 25 minutes if I start with all the needed tools layed out on the table. Takes about 10 minutes longer on the older ones to remove the dash to get at the bolts. Another half hour to rebuild the box( if all the parts are laying there waiting) and about 35 minutes to re assemble tractor. Of course I 've done the operation so many times now I don't need to open the book anymore.
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I believe the input flange is made out of cast iron. If you weld the flange to the shaft and ever have to service the BGB, you won't be able to "separate" the tractor to service the unit since the flange must come off the shaft to get the shaft throught the hole in the frame. I bought a 7016 off Ebay with a blown BGB. Not sure how the previous owner brutalized the machine enough to do this, but replacement was needed. I tend to work slowly and methodically referring to the manual as needed. It took me about 2 hours to separate the tractor "halves" and remove the BGB from the back half. Once the damaged BGB was out and I'd found another replacement on eBay, I rebuilt the replacement box after inspection revealed metal shavings in the gear oil and chips out of the gears could be seen. One gear was about $100 from my local dealer and since I was in neck deep anyway, I replaced the bearings, shims and seals since I didn't know if metal shavings had gotten into them. My Dad ran a A/C B-10 for 20 years, and I'm on my 20th with my Simplicity 3410. Neither has had a BGB failure under normal mowing use. We don't get much snow here in SC. If a machine shop can cut a new keyway into your shaft cheap enough, then go for it; but if the shaft got chewed up at all may as well do the job once and do it right. The directions in the manual are very accurate and step by step...easy to follow. Unless you have all the parts ready and waiting, this process can take some time, depends on how fast you need the machine up and running again. Brian
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Wow, you guys--thanks for all the information! I feel much better about undertaking this than I did. Girlfriend says we should get that digital camera now, so I guess she was a little worried I'd wind up with "extra pieces" too--lol! For the pros, like Smilin' Sam and other people who can do it so rapidly, that's very encouraging because, if I triple your estimates, it's still not that bad. Re: Ray S and others who read my mind and posted info on pricing (even though I didn't ask) that makes me feel better as well. $58. for one shaft doesn't seem outrageous to me, nor do the bearings and seals--thanks again. Wilm169--by
quote:
I think I would pull the drive shaft first and look you might not have to pull the BGB.
do you mean disconnect from the engine side, and remove the BGB drive flange first, to check out the shaft? If so, that sounds like an excellent idea--thanks! (Not sure if I understand correctly but I'm going to go look it over, refer to the book, and "see what I can see". :) Johnmonkey--I hear you on re: replacing the bearings and the snap ring--thanks. Brian--I believe I may be more like you, in terms of work style, as I too need to work "slowly and methodically," and so I was reassured that you were able to succeed with a similar approach, in a reasonable amount of time. Thanks everyong, again--this is simpletractors at it's best! Peter
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  • 2 weeks later...
quote:
Originally posted by Mack
The 9-1-1970 Allis Chalmers dealers series flat rate manual under Bevel Gear Box gives four hours and twenty minutes to remove from tractor,disassembly,inspect parts,reassemble replacing necessary parts, adjust backlash,reinstall on tractor. Oh, and the price table for labor charge rate per hour only goes up to $7.00 per hour.Ah the good old days.;)
I almost spit out my coffee reading you talking about the labor rate.:p Would you be willing to share a copy of the flat rate manual?
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Before you guys get to thinking the 7 dollars/hr shoptime sounds too good, check out whatever you do for a living was making back then. 5 bucks an hour was pretty good wage for a carpenter back then, I wouldn't bring my own hammer for that now.
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I remember those days I was making $5.50 per hour as a union surveyor and bought my house for $ 13,000
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quote:
Originally posted by Mack
The 9-1-1970 Allis Chalmers dealers series flat rate manual under Bevel Gear Box gives four hours and twenty minutes to remove from tractor,disassembly,inspect parts,reassemble replacing necessary parts, adjust backlash,reinstall on tractor. Oh, and the price table for labor charge rate per hour only goes up to $7.00 per hour.Ah the good old days.;)
That was more than likely the rate that the dealership was getting the poor guy doing the work probably didn`t make half that.
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