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brooksdr

Duetz-allis 1920 hole in block ??????

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brooksdr
I just bought a d-a 1920 with the kohler M20S it was supose to have a junk motor. It does have a hole in the block the size of a nickle. He said he was mowing and it made a noise and oil blew all over the place. He said he shut it down and put it in the shed. I checked the compression and both sides are good. So for the heck of it I jump started it and it fired right up. The motor has no knocks and has good power(I engaged the blades and tried the power steering). The only thing I noticed beside the hole is the engine is it has no governor. It revs way up there quick only moving the throttle lever about half way. Could parts of the governor fell apart and got knocked through the block. Please Help. It is a very nice machine and is worthy of a new short block but at 1200 a crack I would chance patching the hole and a quick fix til next winter. (if possible)

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sandyhillbill
just went thru the same deal with my Simp. Sunstar. After going thru the short block repair I had the same thing happen again after several years of mowing. This time I added about $600.00 to the cost of a short block and put a complete engine in it. much more satisified and confident with it now. Runs like it did in 1987 when it was new. Good luck with yours.

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comet66
I have talked to two others that have had what was basicaly the same failure. I understand the govenor was a problem with the Magnum engine. When I bought my Sunstar there was a junk, disassembled engine that came with it that suffered the same failure. Keep in mind if changing to the Comand engine, it takes a different front PTO clutch. Al's conversion kit will contain this part. Perhaps Al will jump in here with some insight into this failure and it's cause. These tractors are worth saveing.

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roma3112
if you go the new route then Al gets my nod, even if he was not a club member, his service help and concern is somthing that cant be over stated. my experience with his complete kit for my sovereign was awsome. Good luck with your project, it will be worth the $$$.

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Al
HI, Losing a governor is not a really rare failure. Usually it is caused from the engine being overheated. The governor shaft is seated in the PTO end in the top of the crankcase. When the engine has the fins plugged and the temps go up,(it has a fever) the highest temps are up by the oil fill cap. Repeated heating and cooling cause the crankcase to expand and contract. Once overheated it never returns to the original dimensions. The governor shaft gets loose in the casting and will move. Then the governor blows up. In the KTs this was rather common and there was a service buttetin about drilling and pinning the governor shaft to stop the movement. I assumed all of the Ms were pinned from the factory. This may be in error. Check the governor shaft and see if it has moved. If so that problem needs corrected. I believe you will have to split the case to fix this. If it was really hot the governor gear or what is left of it will be tan or brown instead of ivory colored. These are clues that are taught in failure analysis classes. If I were doing it and pulled the pistons out of the cylinders, I would never put them back in without new rods and rings even if the cylinders were in spec. You can remove the cylinders without taking the pistons out. With the piston at top center, take the jug loose and slide it out until the wrist pin is accessable. Remove the wrist pin and leave the piston in the cylinder. Then tear the case apart. I definitely would put new rods in this unit. I believe thes are torque to yield bolts and are never supposed to be reused. Once the case is split, you can have the hole heli-arc'd. I believe you will find that a new short block is in the 19 to 2000 range and has a 90 day warranty. Our kits have a new OHV engine with a 2 yr warranty and the engine will probable out last 3 Ms. We have a 20 and 25hp version. It includes a new electric clutch which addresses the clutch torque issue. The 25 hp version has also been temp certified by Kohler and meets all of their specs for cooling. Good luck with this, Al Eden

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Leroy
quote:
Originally posted by PeppyDan
What is the difference in the electric clutches for the Command engines & why do they need to be different than the Magnum. Dan
My guess,maybe it's the output shaft size 3/4" vs 1 " Also maybe,after going through all that work are ya sure ya wanna use an old one, when everything else is new?

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Al
Hi, Two issues, the engines are different lengths and the clutch would require adaptors made and to have the drive shaft modified, which makes the cooling air seal at the plenum a problem. Also the 20 hp engine is pushing the torque limits of the clutch and the 25 completely exceeds the torque specs. The new clutch is far superior and reliable. Changing the clutch eliminates havina a Primitive Pete, cobbled up repower. Al Eden

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D-17_Dave
When I talked to Warner Clutch engineer's about my diesel repower and got to understanding the clutch refinements in the past few years, it didn't take me long to be glad I went with a new clutch verses trying to modify an older one. Some things are nice to keep so it's easier to find parts for, but if your going to spend the money to repower, why not do it right and build some durrability into the system. Also, don't forget what has happened to some of the engines from coil shorts and older technoligy. The new clutches have been redesigned for this this problem. As well as other improvements.

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dlcentral
Those magnums all seem to fail,,BUT I agree about the overheating situation,chaff or rodent nests kill more engs than anything else,the newer cheaper built ones nicely melt down under the hi temps,

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SmilinSam
I like Al's comment on color changes in the plastic governor from heat. In ALL of the blown M twins I've torn down & sold for parts the gears have all been a nice shade of brown...

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PeppyDan
Al, thanks for the reasons the electric clutch needs to be changed. I heard they needed changed but no one could tell me the reasoning for the change. I have a CH25S (spec# 68543) I plan to repower my Sunstar with. I am planing to get a new CH 20 muffler for the Sunstar & now I will plan to get a new electric clutch. Other than slightly different wiring, is there anything else I need to consider. Dan

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Al
Hi, This is not just a simple repower. The driveshaft must be changed as does sheet metal and ducting. The muffler and exhaust pipe, clutch, pto pulley, belts, and an adapter plate needs to be made. The frames on the Commnad Sun Stars is different from the M series and the M series engine mtg plate needs to go, and be replaced with a correctly designed adapter plate also. This plus the usual wiring, battery cables, throttle, choke cables and a number of miscellaneous small changes. I suspect that when you get all done, you will find that our kits are not out of line and will save a lot of time and redoing. One thing, we do not sell our kits without the engine for a reason. We have tried this, and our kits are built around a specific spec engine. Using another spec engine often results in wiring and other problems. For example, we had a JD400 CH25 and Duetz CH25 in the shop at the same time. If you took the engine out of one and put it in the other when you hit the key to start it it would blow both ignition module out. They were both CH25s but different specs. One of the differences in the specs was the pin out of the wiring connectors. Other diffenences were the crankshaft, the blower housing that is needed to go with the correct flywheel screen, valve covers fuel pump options etc. There are hundreds of items determined by the spec numbers, some significant, some not so. Since our kits are engineered to be installed by mechanically inclined consumers as well as dealers, we can't be redesigning each one over the phone to work with whatever spec engine someone has found a deal on. When you get a kit from us, it will have "brand new" factory fresh engine, and the spec number will be absolutely correct to order parts for it. It will not be a surplus engine that has laid in a warehouse for several years and had the crank changed or other parts etc to make it compatible with the appliction. Then when you use the spec number on the engine to order parts, the parts you get may not be what is on your engine. We comply with all of the factories temperature specs and our exhaust systems comply with EPA requirements for emissions. We have to submit uncertified mufflers to Kohler for certification. For example a muffler may have been certified for up to a 22 hp engine and we want to use it on a 25, we have to contact Kohler and they run it on an engine in a test cell and certify it (if it passes)for use on a 25, if it doesn't we have to find another option. Or masybe we want to change a manifold and use a muffler that has been certified with another manifold. Same scene. We usually do the prelilminary back presssure testing and when we think we have a good system then submit it to Kohler for final approval. The federal EPA rules are very specific about these emission rules and the muffler sysem must not be responsible for putting the engines out of emisson specs. The penalties that "can" be levied can be up to $10,000.00 per kit sold for willful violations. So there is a lot more involved in doing these repowers properly than meets the eye. Al Eden

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PeppyDan
WOW, it sounds like alot was changed by Simplicity when they switched to the Commands. Maybe I will just rebuild my Magnum 20 and save alot of headaches. Thanks again for your explaination! Dan

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Nubian
quote:
Originally posted by Al
Hi, This is not just a simple repower. The driveshaft must be changed as does sheet metal and ducting. The muffler and exhaust pipe, clutch, pto pulley, belts, and an adapter plate needs to be made. The frames on the Commnad Sun Stars is different from the M series and the M series engine mtg plate needs to go, and be replaced with a correctly designed adapter plate also. This plus the usual wiring, battery cables, throttle, choke cables and a number of miscellaneous small changes. I suspect that when you get all done, you will find that our kits are not out of line and will save a lot of time and redoing. One thing, we do not sell our kits without the engine for a reason. We have tried this, and our kits are built around a specific spec engine. Using another spec engine often results in wiring and other problems. For example, we had a JD400 CH25 and Duetz CH25 in the shop at the same time. If you took the engine out of one and put it in the other when you hit the key to start it it would blow both ignition module out. They were both CH25s but different specs. One of the differences in the specs was the pin out of the wiring connectors. Other diffenences were the crankshaft, the blower housing that is needed to go with the correct flywheel screen, valve covers fuel pump options etc. There are hundreds of items determined by the spec numbers, some significant, some not so. Since our kits are engineered to be installed by mechanically inclined consumers as well as dealers, we can't be redesigning each one over the phone to work with whatever spec engine someone has found a deal on. When you get a kit from us, it will have "brand new" factory fresh engine, and the spec number will be absolutely correct to order parts for it. It will not be a surplus engine that has laid in a warehouse for several years and had the crank changed or other parts etc to make it compatible with the appliction. Then when you use the spec number on the engine to order parts, the parts you get may not be what is on your engine. We comply with all of the factories temperature specs and our exhaust systems comply with EPA requirements for emissions. We have to submit uncertified mufflers to Kohler for certification. For example a muffler may have been certified for up to a 22 hp engine and we want to use it on a 25, we have to contact Kohler and they run it on an engine in a test cell and certify it (if it passes)for use on a 25, if it doesn't we have to find another option. Or masybe we want to change a manifold and use a muffler that has been certified with another manifold. Same scene. We usually do the prelilminary back presssure testing and when we think we have a good system then submit it to Kohler for final approval. The federal EPA rules are very specific about these emission rules and the muffler sysem must not be responsible for putting the engines out of emisson specs. The penalties that "can" be levied can be up to $10,000.00 per kit sold for willful violations. So there is a lot more involved in doing these repowers properly than meets the eye. Al Eden
WOW!!! I'm in the same boat,repower or rebuild, I almost made another very BIG mistake. This should be required reading for all Magnum engine owner's. Al thanks a million for sharing your invaluable knowledge and expertise here with us "au gratis". p.s. disregard my email;)

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