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Another Victim of the Big Box Stores


rs07

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Yesterday I went to one of my local Simplicity dealers, who has been in business since the 1950's. When I walked into the store, I noticed that his showroom, which was once full of new equipment was now empty. I asked him if he was still selling Simplicity and he replied that he is "getting killed by the big box stores". He said he can still get new equipment, but he is slowly getting away from the new equipment sales. He is just into selling parts and providing the service. A Lowes Store just opened up about 2 miles from him about a year ago now. It sure didn't take long for him to get squeezed out by the big box stores.
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The brand as a whole is not going down the drain. In my Area the dealer would not carry the Legacy XL he has 3 Regencys a 3 walk behinds not associated with Simplicity. The guy use to sell Hondas and wish he still could. So i don't visit him. I have to go 90 miles to get my hands on one. That dealer has two and rents them out, so folks can get a feel for them. I didn't rent one. it wouldn't fit in the Impala and I'm hopeing to buy old and sufficent than new and efficent. He didn't have a used Soverign.
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You didn't already have a wal-mart selling junk in the area? It seems to me that many of the people buying equipment from lowes likely wouldn't have bought a more expensive Simplicity anyway, even if Lowes wasn't in the picture. Less and less people are using this type of epquipment for gardening, and heavier tasks like was common in the 50's so versatility and durability is not much of an issue. If it mows the yard for a couple years thats all they care about.
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Hi Yes I hear you on the big Box Stores, ever since Home Depo Started selling the L series John Deere Lawn and Garden Tractors, in addition to the Deere Dealers more and more people are switching to the L Series Deeres, and the smaller less known brands that are sold through Big Box Stores. I have a great Simplicity dealer near me still open so I will continue running my Agco 1920H and Deutz Allis 1918H. No big box Stores Garden tractors will ever compare to the quality of the Simplicity mowers(no offence to anyone, this is just my opnion).I was talking to someone a while ago who bought a Lawn Tractor from a local store. He bought a Yardworks Tractor, the other day he went in to get parts for it, and the store did not even have a parts catolog for him to order parts for it. He was told he would have to drive at least an hour away to a dealer who actually sold the parts for his tractor. This is a big reason why I will never run a Big Box Tractor, because of poor parts avaliblity or service for the Yardworks tractors. As long as Simplicity is around, I will run Simplicity. Take Care Jason B
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I've been putting my 6216 out for sale and get many people telling me they can go to HD and get a machine for $800-900. I compared and yes, they can get a Murry for that price range, but the green ones were not that cheap. So I tell these people that the 6216 compares to the $1700 higher end machines at HD. So what physical features makes the Simplicity line (current stuff) better than these others? Now, I can look at a classic machine and see the beef in the axle, the BGB design, I can read the weight specs, I can look at the strength of the frames on the tractors but what really makes a new Simplicity so much better then the Murry or the Green one?
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelg221
I've been putting my 6216 out for sale and get many people telling me they can go to HD and get a machine for $800-900. I compared and yes, they can get a Murry for that price range, but the green ones were not that cheap. So I tell these people that the 6216 compares to the $1700 higher end machines at HD. So what physical features makes the Simplicity line (current stuff) better than these others? Now, I can look at a classic machine and see the beef in the axle, the BGB design, I can read the weight specs, I can look at the strength of the frames on the tractors but what really makes a new Simplicity so much better then the Murry or the Green one?
If your talkin BBS What really sets Simplicity above those is the Simplicitys are not throw aways. Two years down the road the Simplicity in theory will still be supported. Im betting it will. But i don't think i will be buying a new one till it is 5 years old and has a happy customer base.
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Hi, When I moved into Grass Lake there was two colors out on the weekends, Green and Orange. I first bought A sears, then a MTD 600 series. But as my neighbors pointed out, just as my grandfather did, that for what I did, green or orange was the way to go. On my way to work, I pass 13 houses before the e-way, 9 have Simplictys, 1 JD 425, 1 zmark and 2 old mtd's. When I was in Tractor Supply for unrelated olds and ends there was a couple there looking at a cub. When the person who was there, proudly saying who MTD owns the world of tractors, and that" There are some smaller companys selling, but based upon sales, MTD was the leader!" They were to buy one. The person said we would think about it, he then turned to me who was 3 feet away and asked what I had. I told him a Legacy and I asked him what he had. He had an ingersoll. He said he wanted a mower that would cut his lawn faster. His, like most of us, choice was on the price. I told him my story and how both high end sears and MTD didn't live long in my yard, he said to his wife, "Wow, I guess what I have at home is better". I have 3 simplicty dealers within 20 miles. I see lots of orange on saturdays. Ron
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Who needs a ''garden trac'' anymore,like 1 out of 100? who does gardening anymore 1 out of 500? around me here they are too busy working to support mc-mansions to do yard work??, they hire it out
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I was brought up in the big city in a 212 apartment house 1 block from the subway it doesn't get more urban than that.For some unknown reason I bought a samll farm on the east end of Long Island.I realized immediately I knew I needed a something to cut the grass.I went into town and bought a 912-6 tractor used.I didn't know what I needed the dealer told me this is what I needed.Being a mechanic by trade I was able to keep the thing running and in good shape.When the Kohler exploded I after 1 year I went to HD and bought a 19hp 52" mower.That has served me very well for the last 10 years.Now I will get to the point. Until I joined this club I thought garden tractors ONLY cut grass.I always wondered what all those hitches were doing on the back of the Allis.I had no idea that there were all sorts of useful attachments available that were tremendous time savers that do greats amount of work.People don't know.The average guy that goes to a boxstore sees JD or Murray or Cub is a new homeowner who needs to cut his grass.I have never seen one tractor that HD,Lowes or Sears sells that will take a power implement other than a snowblower.If they have a tiller for example it is a tow behind with a 5hp motor.When you compare boxstore MOWERS,they are not garden tractors they are big mowers,it is an unfair comparison.Simplicity Garden tractors are just that minature big tractors that happen to cut grass too! My 3 acre front lawn is the envy of the neighborhood.My neighbor to the left who is professional landscaper told my wife the other day how beautiful my lawn looked compared to his.The answer is simple.My 7116H with the rear powered vac system and trailer.My lawn is mean and really green and looks like Yankee stadium.Box sore mowers offer a rear bagger.I had one for my Murray,all it did was choke up if you did more than a crawl. On my 912-6 has the tiller attchment.For the last 4 years I use it to deeply till her garden.At the county fair she had the biggest pumpkin 2 out of 3 years besides other awards for stuff that came out of her garden. In the winter my 912-6 gets its wheels weights,chains and snowblower and it clears my 400 ft blacktop driveway easily. I just got 7010 that I will retrofit with a 16hp motor and find a task for it.Next year I think I would like to get a new Legacy but the nearest dealer is in Connecticut across the LI Sound!!!!! I discoverd A/C Simplicity by accident as a trade in at the local Cub dealer.I think it is the dealers job to explain you don't need a $5000.00 JD mower from HD because thats all it is,just a big mower.That's alot of money.It looks to have the same trans as the Murray and is no more capable than the comparable sears unit.Simplicity has to push that these are minature real tractors that can do alot of work.Maybe not today but you may need it someday.Buyers have to be told the difference.
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Lots of differences pointed out here -- attachments, versatility,etc. As an amateur, I have to rely on cues. Like grease zerks. In my mind, if they went to the bother of tapping for zerks, the designers were intending this would be maintained. The old ones are obviously "over-built" as well. Heavier gauge metal that stands up to dunces like me hitting walls, posts, etc and takes a long time to rust through. Another cue is engine choice -- I know there are a lot of Briggs fans out there but you must admit MTD Briggs has made different levels of quality engines over the years and the ones they stamp out for the big box mowers sound like they're ready to detonate. Even so, the old Simps are designed to last longer than their premium-range engines. The bottom line for me is value -- my tractor is old, but for less than I'd spend on a plastic pretender I got a big hunk of steel I can maintain, the parts are not going to self-machine after a couple seasons and if my motor does blow I can repower the tractor with confidence. Much more affordable and useful in my book. Last year, I tried to help out my neighbor repair the steering on his Crapsman -- every part down the line was wallered out or bent -- the washer cut into the shaft, the washer i.d. was oval, the mounting surface was 14 or 16 gauge steel and was cracked and bent. No repairs possible for the amateur -- or intended by the manufacturer. It's sad to see quality implement dealers go, but that's just the way our country is going -- low maintenance, disposable, disregard for the value of true quality or self-reliance. Man, do I sound grumpy and old or what? Guess I won't get invited to the Optimist Club meeting!
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It seem like the only ones doing any advertising are JD and Cub. I have never seen much in the way of Simplicity advertising. If you have, where are they advertising?? A company can't stay in business in retail sales without advertising. Is Simplicity going to depend on being a vendor to other manufactures in the future to survive? Dan
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I see simplicity ads on tv once in a while. There must be more outlets running the ads because at the end a screen "cuts in" with a list of local simplicity dealers, not part of the regular commercial. I too discovered this site/simplicty by accident. Found my landlord at a tag sale, and it was old and cheap and solid--perfect for my non-existing budget after buying a house. I needed a mower obviously and a garden tractor for the yard and, well, the garden. Didn't really know what I was looking at, being new to the market, as they say. When I got it home and started to really get a good look at it, I was amazed, truely. I mean, stock grade-five bolts for the sheet metal alone???!!!! Wow. They were built to last. That was obvious. But as was stated above, more and more people are getting further and further from self reliance. And more and more companies are catering to that. What matters in yuppiedom is the newness of the machine and horse power. Not horse power how we look at it, but rather it's looked at as "whoever has more horsepower has the meanest tractor." Please. We need horses to pull and push plows, drag trees and pulll loaded trailers. They seem to think they need 20 horses to turn two or three blades on a mower deck. They could get by with a 10 or 12hps. But these are the same people who buy ford expiditions because they "need" it because they have kids to get to soccer games. Again, unless it's seen mud, it's a $50k station wagon. Anyway, when I need a new machine, I'll go with the company that puts quality ahead of predestination. That's a rare breed and it has to be supported.
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That's a good point! How much gas would a higher horse power machine waste? I'd assume they use more gas than the older just as good cut machines. At the price of gas, I start noticing when I fill up two or three 5 gallon cans. Also found a funny google link about the HD John Deere machines: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tractor/msg042007476597.html
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I use my tractors as "mowing and light gardening machines". But when it comes down to my garden, I plow and do the mass tillage with our Massey Ferguson 231S. I still like to use the tiller between corn, and the rest. As far as I concern, if you want to cut grass for today, go buy a big box store brand. If you want to cut tomorrow and beyond buy a Simplicity
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People forget that JD also has the LT, LX, GT, GX, and X series lawn and garden tractors. All the hype over the L and G JD's is just that, hype. Lots of us JD collectors actually have L/G series machines (not me personally) and for the most part they are good machines. Lots of them like the cut quality, which is up there with even the best ZTR's, according to one guy who uses ZTR's in his business but uses a G-110 for his home. The L/G series has nothing on my '69 JD 140 or '77 JD 300, but they will still wipe out a Crapsman, MTD, or Murray. BTW, most of the Craftsman and Murray lawn/garden tractors have Dana/Spicer rear ends, and I wouldn't doubt that the stick shift L/G JD's have them either. The hydros are Tuff Torq's. MTD's use Peerless for the most part. Pop has a '81 Craftsman LT-10/36 that he still uses every day, in fact I ran it today for an hour. It's on its second engine, but the original 3 speed transmission is still strong. I had a '83 Murray 11/36 5 months ago which was given to me and I rebuilt the carb in it and changed blades, and put new belts on, and it drove great, I used it for everything, the 3 speed in it was very strong to be a belt drive. Come on people, you have to give credit where it's due. Lots of older Murrays and Craftsmen are out there still doing their job. I personally started out with a '77 Montgomery Wards 10/38 (MTD) in 1997. It smoked like a freight train and cut rough, but I made it last until the spring of '99, just before I got the JD GT-235.
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Actually..thought of something..maybe the new machines w/ hydro need a few more horses. But I meant what I said about the suv's. :) And bigcountry, you are right--JD does make a decent tractor. My father-in-law has about five--four at the house and one at his vacation house. They are solid, but I don't like them. Don't like the ride, don't like the hydro response and don't like the safety stupidity on them. I was at his vacation house and was going to mow for him, and it took me God knows how long just to figure out how to start the thing. The levers you use he most are the smallest and not well placed, imo. Not saying that because I'm a simp fan (though I am!). Can't mow backwards???? What the??? And you can't even tell if the deck is running if you're not used to it, since there so much whirring and humming coming from the tractor. I would take one in a second, of course...Just don't care for them!
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quote:
Originally posted by Simplicity314 Don't like the ride, don't like the hydro response and don't like the safety stupidity on them. I was at his vacation house and was going to mow for him, and it took me God knows how long just to figure out how to start the thing. The levers you use he most are the smallest and not well placed, imo. Not saying that because I'm a simp fan (though I am!). Can't mow backwards???? What the??? And you can't even tell if the deck is running if you're not used to it, since there so much whirring and humming coming from the tractor. I would take one in a second, of course...Just don't care for them!
The hydros (pumps) are pretty much identical I don't see how they could operate differently other than actual axle differences. The levers on the JD's I have are large and very easy to operate (even on the newest one). The mow in reverse safety is easily bypassed by holding the PTO up when you press the reverse pedal, and then you can let it go and it won't disengage. Guess its what you're used to. But as I stated in another post I started with a '77 Montgomery Ward 10/38 and an '81 Craftsman 10/36, both had manual PTO engagement so that really wasn't an issue for me. Heck my first Simplicity was a manual PTO. http://www.weekendfreedommachines.com/gallery/Pictures-of-my-1969-John-Deere-140-and-1999-John-Deere-GT-235?page=1 Here's pics of what I have.
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I live in Lyman, SC. For years I'd been ordering parts from Cutter's Supply in Spartanburg. In March I walked in and his showroom was empty also. I talked to the owner who I'd ordered parts from many times before. He said that he still had machines sitting on the showroom floor from when he'd purchased the business 2 years earlier! He's now just in the service end of the business for general makes of machinery. Ok I thought, I'll go back to Johnson's Ace Hardware in Wellford. They take forever to get parts, but they should still be in business. I began to panic as I pulled into the parking lot and all the Simplicity tractors that used to be displayed out front were gone. The son's owner said he simply wasn't getting enough business selling new machines. Thankfully, he's still in the business of repairing Simplicity machines as well as others. Best of all, I can still order parts! Whew! But here in South Carolina, I'm an oddball. All my neighbors use the "big box" machines like MTD or Rally. Those with money to burn use John Deere with an occasional Cub Cadet thrown in. It seems more folks are interested in "throw away" machines to just get the grass cut regardless of how it looks...usually terrible. But these are the same folks who think that if they cut it really really short, they won't have to cut it as often. Brian
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Hi, Keep in mind that the HD series JDs were called Sabre and Scotts before JD decided that they could put their own name on them. They are not in the same league with real John Deeres. The new series Simplicity tractors are tough. We are starting to trade in 12 yr old Broadmores (Lth s) and they are still tough tractors. On the throwaway lines, look at the front ends and steering gears, the tin frames that flex when the mower height lever that disengages the mower is back and the frame flexes so much the safey swithes don't work. You can't even fix them they are so flimsy. Look at their steering gears. Look at the front axles, spindles. Just open the hood and look at it the plastic grill that breaks if the least thing touches them. I could go on and on. Just go to a shop and work on them a couple of days and you will see how CHEAP they can make them. Won't take a couple of days, a couple of hours will show you the difference and by then you will be so frustrated, you will be on your knees giving thanks to work on a Simplicity. Remember Cub Cadets are MTDs also. Al Eden
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quote:
Originally posted by Al
Hi, Keep in mind that the HD series JDs were called Sabre and Scotts before JD decided that they could put their own name on them. They are not in the same league with real John Deeres. The new series Simplicity tractors are tough. We are starting to trade in 12 yr old Broadmores (Lth s) and they are still tough tractors. On the throwaway lines, look at the front ends and steering gears, the tin frames that flex when the mower height lever that disengages the mower is back and the frame flexes so much the safey swithes don't work. You can't even fix them they are so flimsy. Look at their steering gears. Look at the front axles, spindles. Just open the hood and look at it the plastic grill that breaks if the least thing touches them. I could go on and on. Just go to a shop and work on them a couple of days and you will see how CHEAP they can make them. Won't take a couple of days, a couple of hours will show you the difference and by then you will be so frustrated, you will be on your knees giving thanks to work on a Simplicity. Remember Cub Cadets are MTDs also. Al Eden
Al; It is good the hear from a voice of experience. I'm relativly certain that you know if the Legacy XL can out pull a simplicity 9020 or a AC 720. The Legacy XL does not have the hi-lo but i wonder if that is an option?
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quote:
Originally posted by patrician12
.My lawn is mean and really green and looks like Yankee stadium.
I'm sorry to hear that!}:)}:)}:) I would rather have mine look like Fenway!:D:D:D Elon
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I'm not trying to defend MTD by any means, but their commercial lines of machines are pretty serious. Look at the Cub Cadet M60 Tank ZTR, I've heard lots of good things about it. Some of the other products they make such as Lesco and MTD Pro are pretty tough as well. MTD found the niche market for throwaway mowers and essentially took it over from Murray, who was the largest 'low end' brand at the start of the 80's, because they knew it would be a profitable venture as the average homeowner only keeps their mower for 5 years or less, then they either throw it away or sell it and get a new one. The last stronghold of in-house manufacturing for lawn and garden is John Deere, meaning that they have not been bought out, gone bankrupt, or been cheapened up to the point that they do not represent the image of typical Deere equipment. If it had been last year at this time Simplicity would also still be a stronghold, but since they are now a part of Briggs, that can't be said anymore. Same goes for Murray, but they dug their own grave by making their machinery too cheap, therefore lowering prices to the point that the very engines that were installed couldn't be paid for, therefore leading to them being bought out by Briggs to settle their debt. Snapper even went down from their peak of quality in the late-80's. The newer ones just aren't holding up like their predecessors did. That's why Briggs owns Snapper and Murray now. I think Briggs saw potential in Simplicity and bought into what they have determined is worth investing time and money in. Therefore, (I feel like I'm writing a college essay), in my opinion the key to Simplicity's pure existance in the modern market is advertising. They simply have not pushed their equipment enough in the past, expecting them to sell themselves. How can you sell anything if you aren't known or recognized? I believe I am pretty accurate in saying that Simplicity is unknown to people who live south of the Mason/Dixon line, other than Simplicity sewing machines.
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There is a LOT of advertising for Simplicity around here in Northern Indiana. Couple of commercials during every evening newscast. Talking about Deere,my dad gave me his JD 208 that he bought new in 79.He ended up getting a newer Landlord,BTW.My 3410 Landlord's engine had died,and I needed something for grass cutting.I also ended up finding a snowblower for it. After using the Deere less than 3 months,I sold it,and got an engine for the Landlord.Hooking up attachments on the JD was a royal pain,compared to Simplicity.The steering wheel was at the wrong height for me.The snowblower I bought for it didn't work worth a darn,in a heavy snow we got.I just couldn't find much to like about it.I fixed the 3410,found some other Simplicity/AC's to work on,or for parts,and never looked back.
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I went to HD tonight for other reasons, but took time to check the pricing and the quality of the murry and JD. I thought the decks were very solid feeling, though they use the four wheel design verses the Simplicity patended roller design (hey is that still patented?) Anyway, I really couldn't see quality differences. They all had grease fittings on the front steering, they looked beefy in the steering. The hood, yes plastic, but it looks like it might hold up. The air cleaner was a gimic with a plastic locking chamber with a easy load air cleaner (probably expensive to replace and difficult to clean). I saw that all the JD's were 48" decks, the murrays were 42" decks. Again solid decks, had a lip on the bottom to give them strength. The only thing I saw was that the tires are smaller on all these machines verses my 6216. Well that's all I saw, anything else cheap or poor design which we can differentiate the Simplicity line?
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The vast majority of the anti-John Deere sentiment here is purely an issue of ignorance and inexperience. Some say they are hard to use, all I can say is that I've never ran across one that I couldn't use, one look at the controls and I'm good to go. The Quik-tatch system is great. I can remove/install a deck in less than 5 minutes each way. I might spend 2 minutes adjusting the mule drive for the correct belt tension but thats on the high side. Anything else short of a loader can be installed in less than 5 minutes as well on any Deere. All the controls are within arm's reach and there's no bending over to flip a PTO lever. Even the small 108, 111, and 116's w/manual PTO had the lever on the side of the control/instrument panel. As to any difficulties with attachments actually working satisfactorily, well, that can be attributed to either operator error (belts not adjusted correctly, reversed hydraulic lines, etc.) or lack of PM on the equipment (or just plain worn out). The only weakness on the 110, 112, and 200 series Deeres is the belt system. The vari-drive is nice and all, but you still have parasitic power loss through the belts. The 68-74 110's/112's and 75-87 200 series have 4 spds. with granny low. They do great in plowing. I'm not saying Simplicity didn't make good machines, if I thought that, I wouldn't be here. What I am saying is that they have almost no presence here in the South. The dealers that have carried them in the past have gradually phased them out and replaced them with Exmark, Encore, Ferris, and all sorts of ZTR manufacturers. The dealer I deal with only has the Coronet and Regent machines and a used Legacy Diesel and the rest of their showroom is Snapper, Cub, and majority Ferris.
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