Kubota BX23 verses the newest Simplicity Machines?

[Guest]

Hey even though its the wrong color, I know someone who bought a brand new BX23 and I'm going over to check it out. How do you think it compares to the new Simplicity Legacy XL machines? He paid around $16K for this machine w/loader and backhoe. Tells me it weighs about 1500lbs just the machine and 2300lbs with the loader and backhoe. The Legacy XL diesel weighs about 1400lbs and also has a cat1 3 point. Any suggestions for a new owner of a machine like that? Maint, etc. Where to buy implements? I suggested looking at TSC and then contacted TSC to find out that King Kutter makes all their implements. Interesting thing with that was to find out they designed all their implements on the Kubota bx2200; for it's Three point Cat1 hitch. Now, King Kutter told me that they designed there implements to work both Cat0 and Cat1 with the only thing different being the weight of the implements (Cat 1 can take heavier implements). The guy I talked to knew NOTHING about the Simplicity Legacy XL and at the time, I didn't know the spec either. What do you think? http://www.kubota.com/f/products/bx.cfm Edited===== (to add this link to "King Kutter Inc."): http://www.kingkutter.com/ (Thank you all for the advise and referals!!!)

[RayS 79]

The Kubota is a nice machine. The Simplicity is made here.

[Kent 435]

With the BX23 having a backhoe at that price, Kubota is exploiting a niche that no other manufacturer can compete with today. Even the smallest Kioti hydrostat (CK20HST), though really a bigger tractor (compact vs subcompact), is more expensive with a backhoe. The BX23 is essentially a BX2200 with a little more frame reinforcement to handle the proprietary 4-point backhoe mounting. If you need a LITTLE backhoe, it's a good machine at a good price. The Legacy, IMO, is intended for a different market -- where the primary use is still mowing. Though the loader and backhoe come off a BX23 pretty readily, they don't compare with ease of removing the loader from the Legacy, IMO... I think he'll find that he will soon tire of removing the backhoe and loader if he's planning to mow with it too... He'll likely end up leaving the loader on -- if his lawn will let him do that. As far as Keen Kutter, they offer two different "classes" of 3-point attachments. In addition to their normal Category 1 stuff, painted yellow, they also have a complete lineup of "XB" products intended for the subcompacts, like the Kubota BX, Massey GC2310, John Deere "X" series, etc. The XB product line is typically a little smaller, a little lighter weight, and is painted orange. They use Category 1 pins, on Category 0 spacing, so they're a little easier to hitch up and use on the smaller tractors... I just bought a XB48 48" rear boxblade at TSC yesterday -- it weighs about 100 lbs less than their regular yellow 48" one -- ballpark 300 lbs instead of 400 lbs. Your friend can interact with lots of BX owners on the Tractorbynet Kubota forum at: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/postlist.php/Cat/0/Board/owning

[Leroy 0]

The BX23 is a TLB and the backhoe is not intended to come off. When it is taken off, the hardware to use the tractor as a 3 point implement user will have to be purchased. Even then ithe BX23 is not the same as a BX22 on the tail end as the Kubota parts man decibed to me. Your friend will still need a Mower if he is to be truly happy with his new TLB. The cat 1 3ph Backhoe kits are 600- 900.

[10HorseMan 0]

Though it looks like a nice machine, the big question is how soon can the dealer have parts for it since it is made overseas. My grass will not stop growing during that time. I think the Simplicity is a more "User friendly" tractor when it comes to attatchments, and the big plus is I can get most of the parts of it in a day or so. Simplicity still has them beat.

[Kent 435]

Leroy, The BX23 backhoe can be removed in about 15 minutes, once you get the hang of it -- I had a dealer demonstrate it to me. They reinforced the rear frame and some areas around the seat to handle a backhoe, but basically it's the same tractor as the other BX series. The 3-point hitch is optional, but once installed, can remain installed -- or at least that's what I was told. You just have to remove the top link to install the BH. I went all the way to getting a price quote when I was looking around -- then decided that I couldn't rationalize that much money for just a few weeks worth of work per year... Personally if I were going to spend that much, I'd go about $1500 - 2000 more and get the Kioti CK20HST TLB... it's a 1,000 lbs more tractor! :D Then, I'd still mow with a Simplicity! ;)

[bigcountry 0]

quote:

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Originally posted by 10HorseMan
Though it looks like a nice machine, the big question is how soon can the dealer have parts for it since it is made overseas. My grass will not stop growing during that time. I think the Simplicity is a more "User friendly" tractor when it comes to attatchments, and the big plus is I can get most of the parts of it in a day or so. Simplicity still has them beat.

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Kubota has enough parts warehouses in the states that "not having" parts isn't a problem. The Japs aren't that far out of the loop..... Lots of other machines use Kubota engines, Grasshopper ZTR's for example.

[Kent 435]

quote:

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Originally posted by bigcountry Kubota has enough parts warehouses in the states that "not having" parts isn't a problem. The Japs aren't that far out of the loop..... Lots of other machines use Kubota engines, Grasshopper ZTR's for example.

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Yes -- some of their equipment is assembled in Georgia... similar to the Honda cars made in Ohio...

[Leroy 0]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kent
Leroy, The BX23 backhoe can be removed in about 15 minutes, once you get the hang of it -- I had a dealer demonstrate it to me. They reinforced the rear frame and some areas around the seat to handle a backhoe, but basically it's the same tractor as the other BX series. The 3-point hitch is optional, but once installed, can remain installed -- or at least that's what I was told. You just have to remove the top link to install the BH. I went all the way to getting a price quote when I was looking around -- then decided that I couldn't rationalize that much money for just a few weeks worth of work per year... Personally if I were going to spend that much, I'd go about $1500 - 2000 more and get the Kioti CK20HST TLB... it's a 1,000 lbs more tractor! :D Then, I'd still mow with a Simplicity! ;)

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I reconcile the Parts mgr was trying to steer me from it because the BX23 may be a bit of a let down if i was expecting a one size fits all. I recieved a Video from Simplicity that showed the Legacy LX getting some work done. I can't imagine one of the older Simplicitys or AC's being able to do the work as fast. But then longivity has yet to be proven on the Tuff Torq 92, and at 14k/ for the FEL and mower attachments. The older Simplicitys Or AC's with attachments will better buy. Simplicty has the history of fine lawn and garden work, and long list of satisfied customers. Kubota has a good history also. If Simplicity actually showed up at a lawn and garden show it is likely they would sell a few more. As do there competitors.

[TimJr 206]

A couple of notes on the Kubota stuff. The 3 point parts come with the tractor, they just get removed when using the backhoe, and pinned on when using the 3 point - just like the B21, L35 and L48 TLB's. The backhoe is easy when you are used to it. Kubota has a huge manufacturing/assembly plant in Atlanta. The loaders, backhoes etc. are made here. Titan supplies wheels and tires. Kubota tractors are getting more American all the time. The big advantage to the BX is the factory Cat 1 3 point, and the standard 540 rear PTO. Tim

[Leroy 0]

quote:

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Originally posted by TimJr
A couple of notes on the Kubota stuff. The 3 point parts come with the tractor, they just get removed when using the backhoe, and pinned on when using the 3 point - just like the B21, L35 and L48 TLB's. The backhoe is easy when you are used to it. Kubota has a huge manufacturing/assembly plant in Atlanta. The loaders, backhoes etc. are made here. Titan supplies wheels and tires. Kubota tractors are getting more American all the time. The big advantage to the BX is the factory Cat 1 3 point, and the standard 540 rear PTO. Tim

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Tim, Maybe at your dealer it comes with. Kent and I have had a different story told to us. Perhaps at the price quoted it will come with, but tiz X tra option on the BX23.

[thedaddycat 153]

I saw a Kubota B8200 near here, 4WD, 19 horse (I think 3 cyl.) diesel with loader and weight box and just over 1000 hours on it. The guy wanted $7500 for it, but I'm not familiar enough with Kubota to know if that's fair or not. Any opinions?

[Leroy 0]

Kirk, the BX 8200 4x4 ran from 83-90. Fair price? that would depend on the individuals attachments and his record keeping. Minimal net, user coverage is the thing about Kubotas. Folks that have-em go to Kubota. Chat rooms for kubotas are, not exsistant as far as I know. 1. Either not necessary,( baloney) or to busy using it, to type about it. Hmmm, I don't know. To me that is a drawback. Certainly Kubotas have faults. But the net has got little info, except for price complaints. one possibility is that 25% of Kubotas income is used to remove Kubota complaints from the web. Well that seems preposterous. On the other hand, you already know Simplicity. Have another?

[Guest]

Kirk, I've been watching the Kubota's, but will not comment on good/bad pricing. I will comment that recently I saw a lot of the style Kubota's Kent bought going in the price range he described. I'm not currently in the market, but when I am I'll study that market for a good eight months to a year... I had a family member buy an older Kubota diesel a few years ago with loader for less than $3000, nice machine but so old that I believe he had problems or little interest finding implements. In book, it's all about the implements. General question to the larger tractor folks/post hole digger knowledged... My friend is looking at a post hole digger from Northern Tool verses TSC which I saw good prices. I also searched and found Bush Hog makes a post hole digger. Ignoring price and looking for safety and quality, does anyone have suggestions on that tool? The only thing I noticed about Bush Hog is that it had hydraulic cylinders to point the rig with more control than the units from Northern Tool or TSC.

[ambler 0]

Check out AGCO, Massey and Kioti. They all have tractors to compete with Kubota. I think the massey's are better built for the money. Four $20K you can get 30hp with loader backhoe in a compact tractor.

[bigcountry 0]

quote:

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Originally posted by ambler
Check out AGCO, Massey and Kioti. They all have tractors to compete with Kubota. I think the massey's are better built for the money. Four $20K you can get 30hp with loader backhoe in a compact tractor.

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Back in February at the Southern Farm Show they were selling JD 5205's with loaders and MX-6 bushhogs for $20k even as the show special.

[Leroy 0]

quote:

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Originally posted by ambler
Check out AGCO, Massey and Kioti. They all have tractors to compete with Kubota. I think the massey's are better built for the money. Four $20K you can get 30hp with loader backhoe in a compact tractor.

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The Kubota 2910 rated @ 30 hp with the FEL is 16,000.00 How important is the loader. 5 to 6k from my research. Off brands may be cheaper. The dealer markup is prolly more on the off brands,( guess). Because the local Kubby dealer quit carrying the BH. I asked why and they said that the off brands offer a better deal in some respects. Im guessing a better deal in their pocket.

[Leroy 0]

quote:

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Originally posted by bigcountry

quote:

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Originally posted by ambler
Check out AGCO, Massey and Kioti. They all have tractors to compete with Kubota. I think the massey's are better built for the money. Four $20K you can get 30hp with loader backhoe in a compact tractor.

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Back in February at the Southern Farm Show they were selling JD 5205's with loaders and MX-6 bushhogs for $20k even as the show special.

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I wonder if Simplicty could gain a bigger piece of the pie if they showd up at the farm shows?

[ambler 0]

I don't think of massey ferguson or agco as off brands. Kiotis are one tough little korean tractor. Your paying a premium for kubota now and you get more bang for your buck from the others. How about service? Go with the dealer with the best service.

[Guest]

Well we found some rocks which hit the 500lbs limit of the BX23 and they were not that big. We were able to lift the rock a few inches off the ground and move it towards a pile/fill area and then push it. As for ease of removing the attachments, WOW can you say easy. All pinned like a Simplicity, no tools. Each attachment can be independently removed in 5 to 15mins(absolute max). Each attachment gets sat down and then you use the attachment with the hydraulics to lift it off pins on the tractor (after removing locking/safety pins). The backhoe was not as invinceable as a larger backhoe I rented a few years back or my buddies CASE (12000 lbs machine).

[FiremanRon 0]

Last fall, I bought a LegacyXL diesel after thoroughly comparing the BX2200 and JD 2210. Simplicity has always had the best cut, due to the free-floating mower. JD and Kubota hang the mower from the tractor frame, with the wheels only to keep the deck from digging into high spots. Kubota has the ability to pin the mower up so you can still use the 3-point with the mower attached. Legacy has a pin to keep the 3-point up while using the mower. I liked the Legacy hydraulic controls best. I kept hitting the JD lever when I got on/off the tractor, and Kubotas are attached to the loader and stick way up in the air. JD loader removal is similar to Simplicity's walk-off, although you have to go around front to pull the pins. With the Kubota, you have to unpin and drop the legs first, then the hydraulics lift the loader off. All have Limited Cat 1 hitches, which means they have a limited lift height and weight limit. I have a yellow King Kutter box blade (sent by mistake) and it only clears the ground by about 6 inches when full up. The side boards are about 5 inches taller than the orange one. The JD and Kubota have a much higher 3-point capacity than the legacy, but I'm not sure if that is due to the cylinder capacity or the counter weight of the tractor. Simplicity likes to talk about the 27 gross HP, compared to 22-23 for the others, but when you dig into the owner's manual, it says the PTO is only 18hp, which is pretty close to the others. I think all three engine companies have been around long enough to establish reliability. The Briggs engine in the Legacy is made by Daihatsu, JD has Yanmar and Kubota has their own. I have friends who bought the JD and Kubota around the same time, and each of us thinks we got the best one for our needs. The JD and Kubota each have some features that I wish the Legacy had. Also, the frames looked heavier. I like the cleaner layout of the Legacy controls better. And, since most of the usage is going to be mowing, the quality of cut tipped the balance in Simplicity's favor.

[Leroy 0]

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Originally posted by FiremanRon
Last fall, I bought a LegacyXL diesel after thoroughly comparing the BX2200 and JD 2210. Simplicity has always had the best cut, due to the free-floating mower. JD and Kubota hang the mower from the tractor frame, with the wheels only to keep the deck from digging into high spots. Kubota has the ability to pin the mower up so you can still use the 3-point with the mower attached. Legacy has a pin to keep the 3-point up while using the mower. I liked the Legacy hydraulic controls best. I kept hitting the JD lever when I got on/off the tractor, and Kubotas are attached to the loader and stick way up in the air. JD loader removal is similar to Simplicity's walk-off, although you have to go around front to pull the pins. With the Kubota, you have to unpin and drop the legs first, then the hydraulics lift the loader off. All have Limited Cat 1 hitches, which means they have a limited lift height and weight limit. I have a yellow King Kutter box blade (sent by mistake) and it only clears the ground by about 6 inches when full up. The side boards are about 5 inches taller than the orange one. The JD and Kubota have a much higher 3-point capacity than the legacy, but I'm not sure if that is due to the cylinder capacity or the counter weight of the tractor. Simplicity likes to talk about the 27 gross HP, compared to 22-23 for the others, but when you dig into the owner's manual, it says the PTO is only 18hp, which is pretty close to the others. I think all three engine companies have been around long enough to establish reliability. The Briggs engine in the Legacy is made by Daihatsu, JD has Yanmar and Kubota has their own. I have friends who bought the JD and Kubota around the same time, and each of us thinks we got the best one for our needs. The JD and Kubota each have some features that I wish the Legacy had. Also, the frames looked heavier. I like the cleaner layout of the Legacy controls better. And, since most of the usage is going to be mowing, the quality of cut tipped the balance in Simplicity's favor.

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Very good post. It is these kinds of posts that enable folks to summerize the details that we may not have a chance to prove ourselves. So would you say that the Legacy's engine is over rated?

[Kent 435]

Leroy, I don't think he's saying that the Legacy's HP is over-rated. What he's really pointing out is that there are actually 3 different HP ratings on these tractors that are important. 1. Engine HP -- typically related to how well it will handle a belly mower, especially if driven by a separate PTO setup than the rear PTO 2. HP at the rear PTO -- typically related to how well it will handle a rear brush cutter, rear finish mower, tiller, etc. 3. HP at the drawbar -- typically related to how well it will handle a moldboard plow, boxblade, etc. Because of the difference in hyrdostatic transmissions (especially, since gear drives are MUCH more efficient) and how power is transmitted to both the rear PTO and the front/center PTO (for use with belly mowers, etc.), there can be a lot of variation between these numbers, even if the engine HP is similar.... For example, a lot of the smaller gear drive tractors, like Kioti 1914 or older Kubotas, do not have "live PTO" at the rear, but they transmit a much higher percentage of their HP to that PTO. Hydrostatic tractors typically have live PTO, regardless of how small their engine is, but they transmit a much lower percentage of their engines power to that PTO, since the PTO is also driven by the hydro pump in order for it to be "live"...

[Kent 435]

On a different note, if I find that the little 4WD Kubota that I bought won't meet my needs in the woods, clearing the lot I just bought, here's the "new tractor" that I'd be most interested in: http://www.power-trac.com/ [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/FOURTEEN/cccccccccc.jpg[/img] [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/FOURTEEN/e_Cleanup__.jpg[/img] [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/FOURTEEN/Grapple_TBN.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.power-trac.com/images/Attachments/brushhog.jpg[/img] It's all based upon what you're buying the tool for -- how do you intend to use it most... As an analogy, would you buy a 28 oz hammer for finish work? Or a 12 or 16 oz hammer for framing work? If your primary use is mowing, the Simplicity wins, hands-down IMO, but if your primary use is something else, than something else may be more appropriate...

[AGCO918 0]

Kent ,Very good post as always.You made some very good points.I have never seen that brand of front end type tractor.What is it may i ask?Looks like a very neat looking tractor.