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18hp twin in 3410 prodject


ehertzfeld

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Hey everyone, I got to work on mounting the 18 twin in the 3410. I had to cut quite a bit out of the frame. I'm going to have to make a new mounting plate to weld into the pan, the two back holes are right on the edge on the pan. I had to cut out the two braces at the rear of the mounting pan. I'm going to have to make some new braces and reinforce the side rails. I'm sure under normal use it would be fine, but it's going to be a puller.

I have a few days of next week so hopefully I can get some more work done on it. Elon
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Lookin good Elon. ;)Are you sure this is JUST for the Mrs.????:D A friend that pulls Allis tractors started this way too. NOW, he, his wife and his dad each have alcohol burning pullers too!! His first puller is in the Gallery on the Simple Tractors site under Jeff Jager. Although some tin work, paint and decals on the fathers are Allis, all 3 are mainly Cubs. Rod would have to explain them, but 42+ HP from a single cyl. Kohler is pretty darned interesting. Joe
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I've been reading this since day one and have some experience in the matter and would like to offer some guidance as I've done almost exactly the same thing on my 7119. I think if you try measuring the centerline of that crankshaft with centerline of a Briggs or Kohler you'll find it's about a 1/2 higher on opposed twin. That being said and if I'm not mistaken you will have to drop that engine at least another 1/2" by cutting the bottom pan of your tractor and fabricating some more. Those fiber discs on the driveshaft may be able to take some give and take but you want that thing as close as possible to right on. I've done this same thing before and it didn't work because it vibrated rendering the tractor unuseable for me. I didn't want any funny surprises happening between my legs at speed. You're almost there now just try some rebar or 1/2 square steel on the sides of the bottom pan after you've cut it to gain your needed 1/2". You can also start looking for a booster fan in the meantime to make your driveshaft installation go way easier. Richard
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Elon, Also, if you get that booster fan installed on the end of the crankshaft effectively moving your engine out towards the front about 1" your holes should line up perfectly with the Briggs holes already drilled in the bottom pan that the engine mounts to. I know you asked about the booster fan before and I'll try describing it the best possible. It is an extra fan with a shield to stop the grass from going into the cooling housing. You will have to remove the screen in there already "if" you have one. (I think I saw in one of the pictures you didn't have one). It just bolts on to the crankshaft and hugs tightly to the outside blower housing on the outside of the engine but gives you an adapter of sorts to make everything line up for the driveshaft installation. If you have all your old flex plates and spacers etc. everything should turn into a straight bolt-in installation. It also adds about 1" to the outside dimensions so things line up better that way too. Plus you have added cooling with it. If you look back in the archives I believe Daddycat tried this and ran into the same issues as you have here. Richard
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Sandy, The flex disks will take the additional 1/2 inch without any problem. As long as the engine sits flat on the mounting plate so that the crank stays parallel with the tranny shaft there should be no problem. There have been four different engines in the 61 Wards that I pulled off and on for 20 years. One was nearly an inch higher than the original engine. Never had any problems. In fact I still have the same flex disks that I originally put in it.
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Rod, I guess all I can say is I'm bewildered by your claims. Either that or we aren't talking about the same thing. Just so we're not talking in smoke and mirrors here what specific engine were you running that brought the crankshaft centerline above 1" from the "normal" mounting. You're talking 4 different engines you mounted in this '61 Wards but I want to know whch one or ones weren't "normal" mounts. As far as I know all the Briggs single cylinder cast iron and Kohler K series singles had a crankshaft centerline of somewhere around 6 1/4". I'll even expand that to 2 cylinder Vangaurds and KT17 and 19's among other similar engines like Magnums. As far as I know all these engines have the same crankshaft centerline. The Briggs opposed twins had a crankshaft centerline closer to 6 3/4" a good 1/2" difference. Now, to get back to the flex-plates I don't think they were ever designed to run more than as close to perfecty in-line as possible. I realize they are called "flex" but not near what you're talking about I don't think. Remember these were designed to be installed in a tractor that was designed to have them as close to perfectly in-line as possible in a factory installation. The fact that you've found a way that they've worked in your circumstance is great for you but I'd think it's a major safety concern. Remember there is no slip joint on these driveshafts so all "give" will be in your flex plates where the yoke bolts on to the flex. I don't even know what they're made from but the nearest thing I can think of would be almost like fiberglass. Brittle and easily breakable when you're spinning it at 3600 rpm or more so in a pulling engine and it's deflecting one way and then the other in one revolution. Like I said I tried it on my tractor with this opposed twin and it vibrated so bad I wouldn't even use it. It really wasn't that bad but I knew it wasn't "right" so it'll be a project for another time. All I could think of was that driveshaft letting loose and whipping around in that tunnel right between my legs with hydraulic lines and wiring getting all twisted up and it didn't set to well. Yes, it can be done but is it "right"??? That's my thinking anyway. Richard
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Looks good Elon. While your at it cut off those two things on the sides of the tractor ;), and head over to Kirks for some foot rests. :p
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick
Looks good Elon. While your at it cut off those two things on the sides of the tractor ;), and head over to Kirks for some foot rests. :p
Nick, if this was being built for me, the engine would be going in my 64 LL not a RBT. This is for Melaine and she likes having the running boards. Elon
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Sandy, I understand what your saying about the flex disc and the center line of the engine. The bolt holes on this engine is about two inches shorter and a half to three quarter inch longer. Moving the engine forward will only bring more welding. lol As far as the center line, with out taking any measurements "just eyeballing it" it looks real close as it sits. Accually if I remember it could be raised a bit. So adding a longer engine plate will rise it up just enough. The booster fan thingy, any clue were I can get one? I know Rob-B wants me to come see him but I have know idea if that is what he has or if he is just lonley! lol Sorry Rob! I know your out number over there, the guy to girl ratio is what 1 to 4? lol I'll get over there soon. Ive been trying! lol Elon
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Sandy, The engine that sat high in my tractor was a 12 Hp Kohler from a Cub Cadet with the original Cub oil pan, sitting on a set of homemade mounts. This was mounted in a 61 Wards (Simp 700). It has had a 10Hp B/S, the 12Hp Cub Kohler, and now a 14Hp Kohler, and it came with a 7Hp B/S from the factory. Also, just to let you know, I am not talking smoke and mirrors. I pulled tractors for 20 years, including tractors with motorcycle engines that I built from scratch. I am also a mechanical engineer by trade, so I usually know how far the envelope can be pushed. Sometimes I go beyond allowable tolerances and break things, but not in this case. Flex disks usually fail because they have been set up with tension on them in the direction of the driveshaft. I always take the rear flange loose on the tranny shaft and let it float when I tighten up the engine mount, then re-tighten the set screws on the rear flange afterward. I also shim the flex joint connection so that the rear flange stays as close to the tranny as possible. I have three Simp-AC tractors that I am using now, and none have the original engines. Only one has the original engine to driveshaft adapter. I made the other two. I had to make the adapter for the Cub engine when I was using it, bolt circles are different. By-the-way, I don't know how you sat your engine in the chassis, but the engine shaft has to be parallel with the tranny shaft. The front disk puts a pulsation into the driveshaft and the rear one takes it out. Same way on an automobile. If the shafts don't run parallel, you will be creating a sizeable vibration. Never try to tilt the engine and make it point toward the tranny, or else you will have a major vibration. The disks are made from laminated fiberglass. They will take a lot of flexure without breaking. Fiberglass is tough material. It takes a lot of bending to make it break. After all it is fiberglass cords and resin.
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Elon, I got mine from Joe's Outdoor Power. He had no idea what I was talking about either until I sent him a home made picture. They are very common on free-standing engines for some reason. Now that I have one I notice them all the time. I think he charged me $20. Just for the sake of your own well being try to find an original engine from this tractor and measure from the mounting area up to the center of the crankshaft. Do the same on the opposed and see what difference you have and then make your pan mount in the frame correct. Rod, I'm not reading you right or something because what I'm getting out of your take on the parellel lines is it's OK to have the engine mounted up most anywhere as long as your are square with the mounting to the rear but it doesn't have to be in line?? I'll stick with my take on fiberglass that it is hard and brittle and is not made for continued hard flexing that we're talking of here. At the factory I'm thinking they were made just as a semi-rigid connection to run in as close to perfectly in-line as possible with "some" flex. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but I believe you when you say you sometimes push the envelope. A lot of people read these columns and have no idea what is safe and what isn't. I just want to make sure everyone realizes this is not the ideal solution. A far better solution would be to have a mount made up for the engine and transmission mounts with a U-joint and slip joint driveshaft. You being a mechanical engineer should have one for Elon soon right? LOL Richard
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I have run them as much as an inch higher. If the centerline is 3/4 or less higher than factory, it will work fine. You can believe me or not. I wouldn't waste my time on "U-joints" and slip joints. Nothing to be gained. There are other members who will agree with me, but you are entitled to your own opinion. The setup I was using was also pulled behind a 16Hp Kohler that had been ported and the head shaved .065 with some other goodies in it. I estimated about 19Hp from it. Same disks, same rear in a 716 chassis. You think I am wrong, I know I am right. 1 inch lift is roughly equal to about 3 degrees of angle and 1/2 inch lift is equal to about 1.5 degrees of angle. Three degrees may be pushing it, but 1.5 will not have any affect on the flex disks. I know Elon and he will make his own decision as to how he is going to set it up regardless of how much we argue about it.
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any one have a picture of this booster fan thingy??? I need a visual to understand what I'm looking for! lol Rod I'm going to email you in a few days, got a few questions for ya. Elon
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I have replaced 2 single cyl engine with 2 twin cyl 1 was a 416 A/C the other was a 312 A/C both single were KOHLERS. the first was the 416 put a twin cyl 16 hp B&S.there was on vibration. On the 312 i had a small vibration but after i loosing the engine mounting bolts and the flange set screw on the BGB and then went back and tighten everything back up and the vibration was gone. I think that leaving everything a little loose while installing the drive shalf might help.I did not raise or lower either engine. I put a 18 hp B&S on the 312. JJ
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Booster fan 16hp briggs&stratton generater belt pulley [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=82242&item=3982023134&rd=1[/url] [img]http://i23.ebayimg.com/04/i/04/5d/df/d1_1_b.JPG[/img]
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Elon, As illustrated in Maynard's picture, the booster fan is the S-G pulley on many B/S engines. I know there is one on my 10Hp and 13Hp S-G engines. My 16Hp engine has this combination fan/pulley, even though it came with an under-flywheel alternator and a bendix type starter. I don't think they were used on the twin cylinder engines, but should bolt directly to the flywheel.
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Ok so the one on the 10hp I took out of the 3410, should bolt right on the 18hp?! Cool that was easy! lol Thanks everyone. I'll keep you updated on my progress. Elon
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quote:
Originally posted by HubbardRA
Elon, As illustrated in Maynard's picture, the booster fan is the S-G pulley on many B/S engines. I know there is one on my 10Hp and 13Hp S-G engines. My 16Hp engine has this combination fan/pulley, even though it came with an under-flywheel alternator and a bendix type starter. I don't think they were used on the twin cylinder engines, but should bolt directly to the flywheel.
It does bolt right on but the flywheel cover is in the way. How ment of thouse spacers "the ones that goes between the flywheel and the flywheel nut" can you but in there? It looks like unless I cut the cover, I'm going to need about an inch or so. Elon
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Elon, I'm not sure what you are saying is causing the interference. What is the flywheel cover that you are talking about? Is the fan/pulley hitting the cooling shroud? Why not put spacers between the flywheel and the fan, and let the fan ride just outside the shroud like it does on the one cylinder engines? Guess I just don't fully understand the problem. Is it something that you can take a picture of? That would help.
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quote:
Originally posted by HubbardRA
Elon, I'm not sure what you are saying is causing the interference. What is the flywheel cover that you are talking about? Is the fan/pulley hitting the cooling shroud? Why not put spacers between the flywheel and the fan, and let the fan ride just outside the shroud like it does on the one cylinder engines? Guess I just don't fully understand the problem. Is it something that you can take a picture of? That would help.
Rod, that is exactly the problem, I was just calling it the worng thing. lol The booster fan hits the shroud leaving a gap on an inch between the flywheel and the booster fan. I need to make up that difference or trim the shroud. I'll try to snap some pic's tomarow. Elon
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Elon, If that is the case, then just make some one inch spacers, and use longer bolts. I have used tube spacers between the flywheel and flex joint on two of mine, cause I didn't have the original spacer. If I remember correctly, there are two bolts to hold the fan on, then two threaded holes in the fan to bolt to the driveshaft.
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Elon, try spacers between fan and flywheel. If they are the same length, then the fan should run true.
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My old Snapper LT16 tractor ran the Briggs horizontal twin, and it had the "booster fan". It didn't have a belt groove however. After reading this thread it makes me feel better about my plans to install an 18hp B&S twin in my old 416H. JJ, since you've done this, I'd love to hear more about your conversion on your 416. Did you have to cut out the frame rails, and modify the motor mounting plate? Feel free to contact me privately.
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