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GWGAllisfan

Briggs Engine Troubleshooting

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GWGAllisfan
Ok, do briggs cast iron singles ever run right? So far i haven't had any luck with the ones I have. Latest problem: I bought a running 10HP 243431 type 0123 68 model. This engine was runnning when it left the person I bought it from, I have no doubt of that. This engine was in a 2210 I believe, since it had the solenoid for the starter/generator. Ok late Saturday morning I removed the non running 23d from my 990314 Landlord and bolted the new motour in place. One hour job. I put on a gas tank with new hose and a new shut-off valve. Since I didn't have a battery in this tractor, I did not hook up any of the connections to the starter/generator. Once every thing was bolted in, I put in 1.5 quarts of oil, turned on the fuel, set the choke, opened the throttle, wound a rope around the starter pulley, expecting to soon hear the roar of a briggs engine. A mighty yank on the rope and...nothing. First thought, maybe fuel hasn't gotten there yet. Pulled the rope about ten more times, still nothing. Check spark, the old fashioned way..Hold the plug wire and yank rope. Resulting pain indicated a pretty strong spark. Maybe it's not truning over fast enough. Brought my truck around and hooked jumper cables, neagitve to ahead bolt, positive to the solenoid terminal. Motour spun nicely, but never hit a lick. It has gas, and it has fire, therefore it should run. Noticed the two wires around breaker box. One goes to the condenser. The other is attached to the insulator and connects to another wire that I assume would have gone to the switch. This should just be a ground wire, so if this terminated in the air would this let the motour run until it touchs ground, right? The presence of fire at the plug would tend to support this belief, as well as the wiring diagrams in my Briggs manual and Simplicity manual. Ok still not running. Thinking there might be some uniqueness about this wiring, I tried hooking up the battery again and grounding this wire. no change. I looked at the points. They seemed to be opening normally. By now its around 5:00 p.m. Running back through all the possible causes while My wife, three children and a niece observe. I still have a non running engine. Around dark I give up, Planning to buy a new feeler gauge today after church. All day result: Engine "hit a lick" 4 times, but never ran. Bought new gauge, Reset the points to .020 as per manual. Yank on rope 4-5 times, and....nothing. Any body have any idea what I could have missed? I now have 2 10HP, one 23D, and one what might be a 12HP, of which only one will run and it runs so poorly that when the mower is put in gear it dies. I'm really wondering why I can't get these to work... Any ideas: Sorry for the long post, I neede to tell the whole story of how just arriving on my property prevented an engine from running.....

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maxtorman1234
Well, to solve your problem permanantly, i reccommend you find a good KOHLER. Gee, no wonder briggs rarely throw rods, they wont start 1/2 the time. B) From what i've heard, the briggs have a problem with shearing flywheel keys, did you check that? My 10HP wouldnt start at wide open throttle, i had to start it at idle then it would go. THat only happened a few times then it was fine(its a briggs) i dont know why. It had spark and gas too, i dont know, these things are hard to troubleshoot, there never is really a common problem, they do whatever they like. A kohler will always go, as long as the rod's there(for those who like to throw them).

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GWGAllisfan
While Putting a Kohler in it has occured to me, I'm not sure that would be the solution. Since these didn't come with Kohlers, I would expect even more problems with a conversion.. So staying with briggs, Any other ideas?

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quote:
Originally posted by maxtorman1234
Well, to solve your problem permanantly, i reccommend you find a good KOHLER. Gee, no wonder briggs rarely throw rods, they wont start 1/2 the time. B) From what i've heard, the briggs have a problem with shearing flywheel keys, did you check that? My 10HP wouldnt start at wide open throttle, i had to start it at idle then it would go. THat only happened a few times then it was fine(its a briggs) i dont know why. It had spark and gas too, i dont know, these things are hard to troubleshoot, there never is really a common problem, they do whatever they like. A kohler will always go, as long as the rod's there(for those who like to throw them).
Well at least when a Briggs craps out, you don't need a roll of toilet paper to clean things up!!:D:D:D:D GW are you sure ground wire for points is not bare and touching metal someware?

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GWGAllisfan
Tried two new plugs. May have to take it to the local expert after the holiday. Unless i hit on some miracle. Does anyone have an opinion on the one wire i mentioned? That is just a stop wire, right?

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GWGAllisfan
Gas was definately in carb. can see some in base of carb after cranking cycle. Also could faintly smell gas in exhaust when cranking. By the way, there were several times I just thought it was flooded, and drained the carb, waited awhile and started over.

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Ronald Hribar
That it was flooded , or not getting spark. Do you have proper gap on plug. And that the plug does not have damaged insulator. Trying diffent throttle positions may help. If it was running before, and you installed it in your tractor, it has to be something you did or did not do.

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rokon2813
wet plug would indicate the valves are working properly and it is sucking gas into the cylinder. Excessively wet would be flooded. yes you are correct, that wire is only a ground to "kill" the points. as for your problem, not sure. there are those of us who swear by cast iron briggs, :D and those who swear at them. [:0] With spark and gas, I've never had a CI briggs that wouldnt run at least a little. My advice, dont worry so much about the .020 point gap, try adjusting them in or out a tad looking for the best spark. Otherwise, I'm at a loss as to why it wont run.

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GWGAllisfan
2 different plugs, gapped properly. I have never of course heard this engine run, but the man i bought it from said it did and I have no reason to doubt him. Remember, I just un bolted it from a pallet, bolted into the tractor, hooked up fuel, and pulled the rope. I did all this before I tried anything, so I can safely assume that at least at first I didn't do anything to it. At least i can take some comfort that everything You all have suggested is something I've checked... If I tighten the point gap to .018 would that make it fire hotter?

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GWGAllisfan
I'm in the swear at them category lately:) I'll try the S/G tomorrow and see if I just need more engine speed for it to fire. thanks for all the help and suggestions, Good night for now

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Ronald Hribar
Check the points clean of any oil that may be on them. It is possible that motor traveled upside down or sideways in some point in its travels. I had incorrectly understood that it was running and you took it out of one tractor and into another. When you pulled it over do you feel the compression? If it spins fairly easy, you may have sheared key in flywheel. May also be a condenser problem.

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Al
HI, First pull the plug and ground it to the engine to see if you have spark at the plug. If not disconnect the wire from the switch to the insulator at the points. Then check for spark, if none, then be sure the wire from the coil to the points and condensor are not pinched. If still no spark, I would pull the engine and remove the flywheel and check the key. It doesn't have to be completely sheared, but partially sheared will cause no spark. With just changing the engine and connecting the driveshaft, this could be a very likely cause. (It the unit has been converted to a magnatron ignition, it would not use points, but would have spark, but at the wrong time if the key is sheared.) If you have good spark, while the plug is out, do a compression check. If you don't have a compression guage, you can put your thumb over (NOT IN BECAUSE YOUR THUMB WILL GET CRUSHED WITH THE PISTON, or your skin can be shaved by the plug hole threads when the compression expands your thumb and might blow it out of the hole) the plug hole. You should be barely able to hold the compression, (I can hold 75 lbs, but not 120 lbs) but it should try to blow your thumb off the head. If you don't have good compression, you may have a stuck valve from setting, or some similar problem. If you have spark and compression, hook the jumpers up to the cable and open the throttle wide, while it is turning over spray some WD40 in the carb., don't drown it. It should fire, If it does you have a carb or fuel problem. You can check for a fuel problem by putting about a teaspoon of gas in the plug hole and turn it over with the Starter Gen. If it fires a couple of times, you are chasing a fuel problem. You need 3 things for and engine to run, 1: Fuel and air. 2: Adequate compression. 3: Ignition (Spark adequate and On Time) These engines should jump a 1/4" gap in air. These engines are good reliable runners, You just need to find what is lacking. Good luck, Al Eden

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patrician12
I have quite a few Briggs cast irons on my equipment especially 16hp.You need electric start,They are just too mass heavy to start with a rope and I doubt you are making the necessary 350 rpm.You are turning the motor,the shaft and the bevel gearbox all in one shot.Secondly the updraft carbs have quite aways to draw into the cylinder and often need extended crank.Hot this problem can be especially prominent.

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Conrad
A one cylinder engine can be the most aggrivating piece of machinery going. That is because there are no short cuts. Al is right, everything has to get there at the right time. As I see it, your big mistake is thinking that the engine ran just before you bought it. The person you bought it from probably thinks it was O.K. Anything could have happened. I have seen the flywheel key shear on shut down. May have had a back fire on shutdown that caused the piston to kick back. Timing is extremely important on one cylinder. I can only suggest a "back to basics" approach and take nothing for granted. As for them not starting, I have been running CI Briggs for over 40 years. If they are set up right they will start on a quarter turn. As with any magneto type engine, it has to be right. Example, I have a vertical 12 hp. that is giving me fits. It is of the "new to me" breakerless ignition. My grandson fried the system with 12 volts. Burned coil alternator and I don't know what else. keep trying, you'll get it righht. Lots of luck Conrad

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Ronald Hribar
Anything that is not right with a Briggs, will affect a Kohler or any other brand of motor. Kohler has the advantage that a dead battery will not let it start. But it also allows a stronger spark when battery is good. Each motor has it's down falls and good points. And the constant reminder from some parties to switch brands does not help start a motor !!!!!

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GWGAllisfan
Success! After working on this engine all day Saturday and discussing the potential problems with you all on Sunday, Monday I printed all the suggestions and could not see what I had missed. After cutting my grass with the Kohler powered Craftsman, I thought I would give the Briggs one more try. I had noticed that when I had cranked it with the kill wire grounded, when I ungrounded it, sometime it would fire once. I thought maybe the extra time was letting the condenser reach more of it’s capacity, allowing it to fire. I was right, but for the wrong reason. So to make long story short, I was going to change the condenser, when I remember something I had read about pulling paper through the points to clean them, so I slid the top of the new condenser box through the points until it came out clean, then removed the plug in it, replaced it with a cleaner one I had, dusted a little ether in the cylinder, and hooked up the jumper cables to the S/G. Spayed a little Starter fluid in the carb and…..IT RAN. Actually, as I stood there with a look of amazement I heard the children, who had been watching what Daddy was doing, begin to cheer. I’m not joking, they really did cheer and clap, and run to tell Momma the engine was running. Once it started, it ran fine up and down the throttle, idled as slow and even as I’ve ever heard a Briggs idle. Shut it off, pull the rope and it starts, over and over again. I even drove it around the yard and it ran great. Steering’s real stiff and I either have a bent axle or a bent wheel, but it runs. So once again thanks for all the help and advice. BTW three questions The books say the proper plug is a RJ19LM, but this seems to run better with a J8C. Any idea why? Were the older engines meant for non-resistor plugs? Will a solenoid equipped engine fit under a round (landlord/b-10) hood I need a rope pulley to try to start some engines on the bench. Does any body have a spare one or two?

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john-holcomb
Well, i'm the SOB who sold him the engine, and I just now looked at the site as I was busy this weekend. You guys really know your stuff. This engine sat outside for about a week and a half through a couple of rain storms before I pulled it from the tractor moisture must have migrated into the points, because I drove the tractor to the plave by my shop where i pulled the engine. Sorry I wasn't online to help I feel bad about all the trouble Randy. I'm glad you figured it out and I'm sorry I didn't help. John

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