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tbar1.1

Home made loader on 4040

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tbar1.1
Hi people! and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!! Can any one reccommend the proper type of hydraulic fluid to use in a loader? Would it be the same as is in the hydrostatic drive? Transmission fluid? Regular hydraulic fluid for big tractors seems to thick. Any comments welcome as long as they are good ones.:D jayt

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Kent
I don't think it really matters as long as it doesn't foam... The little ones on the B-series used 10W30 Motor Oil. My PowerTrac came with 10W40 Motor Oil, but I changed it to 20W50 Amsoil for better viscosity when hot (wheel motors really heat the oil up). HyTrans or something similar may be your least expensive alternative. Be aware that cold weather starting with thicker oils may be an issue if you don't have a way to clutch the drive for the pump... that's one of the reasons I went to a true synthetic (not just a blend) in the PowerTrac -- all three hydraulic pumps (drive, steering and loader arms) are directly connected. Whatever you use, make sure it has anti-foaming agents in it...

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D-17_Dave
What oil you use depends on a few details. Are you useing the rear end of the tractor for the oil reservior? If so just use the same kind of oil there. If not, then you can still use atf, it won't hurt anything. It's just a little thinner than Hydraulic fluid. You can use Hyd. fluid even if it's cold out, just give it a few minuets circulateing for it to warm up a little. I do this on the tractor for the hydro anyway when it's cold out. There is a diff. between regular grade hyd. fluid and hy-trans or the equvalant. For a loader, cheaper hyd. fluid is fine. If your running a transmision off f hyd. fluid you need to use Hy-trans or the like, it's rated for the viscosity and adhesion caracteristics needed for gear work and heat dissapation. Just running cyl. or simple hydraulic motors regular hyd. fluid is fine.

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tbar1.1
Thanks Kent,What I first put in the system was R/O Hydraulic fluid, it works the loader but is REAL slow. I thought maybe that a thinner oil will pump easier and faster speeding up the movement of the loader. the pump is supposed to move 4.8 gpm. Looking into the reservoir, the oil looks like it is just dribbling in.I suppose that the pump will need to be rebuilt now. Bought it used. Dave,the system is separate from the transmission. I have a pump on the rear pto. Kent, I will try to get some pictures on here for all to see, I may need some advice when that time comes. It has taken me a year to build the thing. Kind of a "Johnny Cash" one piece at a time thing. I think I will try just plain ol ATF and see what happens. Thanks, jayt

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D-17_Dave
jay, A note on hyd. oil flow and pumps. Even at decent throttle 4.8 gpm's is'nt that much. However it sounds like the intake line may be to small in diam. for the pump to be supplied a good oil flow. Most stand alone pumps the intake is larger than the outlet. Make sure the intake line is as big as the intake fiitings. Any reduction in size internally acts as an orifice restrickting the flow.

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tractormike
I may be missing something here but you said you have the pump on the rear pto. If you are running the pump off the 540 pto the pump may simply not running fast enough. I am building a loader and the pump I bought is rated 6 g.p.m. at 3600 rpm.

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D-17_Dave
mike, the pto speed on a powermax is 2000 rpm at 3600 rpm engine speed. Thats plenty fast for a pump at half or 3/4 throttle under most applications. Depending on what size cyl.'s are used will determine what the speed of the loader compared to pump flow.

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tbar1.1
Dave, I guess I am in the learning mode on hydraulics, it's my first time to try to figure this stuff out, the intake hose is as big as the fitting hole. The pump is a cessna with a displacement of .62CID max pressure of 2000 psi. The hydraulic output at 1800 rpm is 4.8gpm. Tractormike, I checked the rpm of the pto output shaft at 700 rpm at idle and 1700 full throttle. I rigged the pump at a one to one ratio. Is that fast enough for this pump?

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D-17_Dave
Did you figure the flow rate or did you measure it? This would tell if your starveing the pump. As for the rpm's, Each series of pumps has it's own max operateing rpm. Your basicly in a safe zone as most are setup for at least 2000 rpm. The trick is just don't go over the max opperateing presure as you may bust the pump. Normally the relief valve is in the valve body, not the pump. So this needs to be checked before going crazy useing the loader. Another note, hydraulic oil under extreme pressure is like a bullit. Bursting a hose or pump under pressure is like a bomb. If it were to pierce your skinn it basicly will never heal.

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D-17_Dave
You have to have a flow meter in line to measure the rate. But you can install a pressure gauge in the line from the pump to the valve with a tee and a gauge rated to at least 3000 psi. By dead loading the cyl. it will max out the pressure against the relief valve and give you the actual pressure that the system is set at. Use caution when doing this by only loading the system in short intervals as the pump doesn't know or care where the flow and pressure is going, it just wants to pump. All the flow must pass over the relief valve and this will build tremendous heat into the oil. Somewhere between 2000 and 2200 is acceptable. This doesn't mean the system is at that much pressure all the time. Just under load. A simple way to tell if the pump is not being starved is to time how fast it takes to go from full down to full up position on the loader at different throttle settings. It should of course increase as the throttle does. If it reaches a certain point where it no longer increases in speed I would suspect the pump is starveing for fluid and cannot pump it's full rated capacity. Also, the pumps suction side needs to be wire wound so it cannot callapse under flow. These are only some experiance observations. Hydraulic's problems can be one of the toughest things to problem solve without being there w/ test instrements in place. Being that this is a home made unit with a collection of possibly missmatched components I'm just gueseing here There are complicated (to me, being less educated than most) equations for figureing pump disp. X cyl. disp. X speed desired= the targeted pump flow. Just because you used your selected or off the shelf componenets doesn't mean that it won't work, it's more like makeing sure there are no hidden problems allowing the components to work at their rateings.

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comet66
Very informative, and educational Dave thanks for the primer!! Well explained as always!! "being less educated than most" Don't ever sell any one short on a practical education. Theory is fine, but practicle experience holds an awful lot of weight in the real world.

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tbar1.1
Elon, I am having trouble downloading pics. At the end of downloading, I get a "Can not display page". Like I get kicked off the net or something. I may have to send them e-mail to kent or someone that has a better connection to the net than me. I've followed the instructions on this site and it always kicks me off at the end of downloading. Jay

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tbar1.1
Dave, Thank for all the information! I think I have found the problem. I first drained all the R/O Hydraulic fluid out of the system, refilled it with ATF and every thing works great. The movement of the loader sped up just a little bit. I think my problem is that the pump needs to be changed to one that pumps more gpm. Maybe something around 6 gpm? Jay

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