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maxtorman1234

Interesting Briggs Problem

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maxtorman1234
I recently put rings in my briggs 243431 from the b110. It burned oil and was low on power, but did run well. I honed it, lapped and adjusted the valves, checked my crank to rod clearance (0.002"), and reassembled. It smoked a little, which is to be expected until its broken in, but after i ran it a bit, it sounded like it had a knock, which got worse, so i took it apart, checked clearances again and they were ok again, then i started turning it over with the piston out, and it made a clunk whenever the cam touched the valves, turns out the bearings were loose and had begun spinning in the block:D. There is significant play between the bearings and block. My briggs book is usleless, it dosent give most of the clearances, so i basically set everything according to a kohler. The valves were way out so with them set right and new rings, it had alot more power after i reassembled it, therefore more stress on the bearings that may have caused it to start spinning now. but anyhow, heres the pictures showing the bearing spinning in the block, it rocks back and forth and is really loose, my question is, what do i do now? The bearings arent sticking or anything they turn freely. It got so bad the rod is starting to show wear marks because it isnt runnig straight anymore. First engine ever, even out of all those crappy KOHLERS I run that has given me a problem, and this was not an operator error or anything, as its definately a design problem or something related. Does anybody know if this is fixable? [img]http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/attach/maxtorman1234/bc1.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/attach/maxtorman1234/bb1.jpg[/img]

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MPH
I don't Graham, think your problem with this briggs is like a life long Ford owner who buys a new Dodge of a model that is great to everyone but he gets the only "lemon" ever made in that model. Think you best just part with the Briggs and keep using what works for you.

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maxtorman1234
Thanks, im definately not going to go out of my way for another briggs, unless its new. My 16HP 326437 has this same problem with the bearings, im going to go around the aluminum and cast parts that the bearing contacts, with a punch, hopefully it will increase the diameter enough so that it holds the bearing, and then i'll throw some loctite for bearings in. if that dosent work, im chucking it:D

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Chris727
First, don't set your endplay according to Kohler, it is in the briggs book, and Briggs has a much tighter tolerance than Kohler. I have seen tecumseh's with spun races in them, when this happens in a briggs, I think there is some sort of a factory fix for that but I'm not sure what it is. I think there is some sort of shim that can go around the bearing to tighten it up.

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maxtorman1234
The endplay is set according to the briggs book, 1 peice of info thats in the book, crankpin to rod and wristpin to rod clearances are not specified, that i had to go according to the kohler book. I tried what i mentioned above with no rresults, im going to run it till it blows, or make akohler fit:)

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Al
Hi, How much play is there in the bearing itself. If one investigates this problem it is possible that the bearing has a lot of play in it. We had a 243000 several years ago that would run at high speed, but wouldn't idle. We replaced the points and condenser, as the unit had intermittent spark at idle. No fix. Put a magnetron coil on same problem. Checked closer and discovered the flywheel would move up and down almost 1/8th of an inch. Due to the ratio of bearing spacing and the amount of crank extended to the outside of the flywheel, the bearing wear was probably .030 or so. At full speed, the crank kind stayed stable due to gyroscopic effect, but at idle it was jumping around and it would fire and then move far enough from the magneto coil. Then with no explosion would move around and then fire again. New main bearings fixed it. I would suspect that if your bearings are loose like these, the Hammering action of the balls on the outer race may actually cause the races to pound the case and them they would roll around the bore of the block and the this pounding rolling action may be responsible for the wear in the case. Also if the bearing got a little piece of foreign material in it it could cause it to lock and rotate in the case and the material could be crushed and leave the bearing. This would immediately cause a lot of heat and the friction would stall the engine It looks to me like vibration causing the outer race to roll around the case, as I would expect more galling and deeper groves and the bearing to be blue from the friction if it had been locked and turning with the crankshaft. I would suspect your bearing is very rough and loose. Vibration can cause damage that seems impossible. While working at Rockwell I have seen things destroyed on multiplane vibration tables that one would believe indestructible. If these bearings are badly worn, probably earlier replacement would have prevented this problem. As to fixing it. How much clearance is there between the bearing and the bore? Is the case bore round or egg shaped? This would be what I would consider a cobb job, or "Primitive Pete" at work and we wouldn't do it, but if you could get some pieces of shim stock between the outer race of a new bearing and the case to center it, it might be possible to do a one time patch. Clean the block and the outside of the bearing with spray carb cleaner or something like lacquer thinned. When clean and dry spray with Loctite Primer-Accelerator. This must dry for min of 5 minutes. Then use, I believe it is 620 or 640 Loctite. I am doing this from memory and you would to check the number you need. It is green and is specifically to be used as a bearing retainer for applications like this. As I remember it has a strength around 30,000 psi and will need to be heated to around 500 or 600 degrees to free the item up. These numbers are what I seem to remember but it has been 10 years since I looked the specs up on this. I keep a bottle in my office and don't let in the shop where it could get used to stake a bolt that would twist off instead of unscrewing. You will have to have everything in order to do this. Once you have the pieces of shim stock, at least 3, they will need to be in place where the need to be placed. Coat the bearing with the loctite and immediately put the bearing in the bore and slide the shims in. The primer will cause the Loctite to "set up" in about 30 seconds and in a few minutes there is NO return. I don't remember if the crank can be installed with the bearing in place or not. If not then the only option would to try to "work" the loctite in with a strip of shim stock after the crank is in, but IT MUST HAPPEN FAST AND IT WON'T COME APART!!! I would just find a good block. The last time I bought this the primer was around 25.00 for a little spray can and as I remember the Loctite was about 40.00 for the bottle. My thoughts, Al Eden

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PatRarick
No, the spun bearing is NOT a "design problem or something related". A design problem is a problem that shows up often in many engines of a particular model or design. How many spun bearings have you seen on Briggs, compared to the broken rods you've seen on Kohlers? ;) Design problems? :D I've had the same problem with two Kohlers, but never a Briggs. One spun on the crank, the other in the block. Again, design problem? ;) The problem was traced to, as Al suggests, the bearing. I wouldn't trust "peening" the bore to tighten up the bearing, due to the reciprocating stress it is subjected to. I would be very concerned that peening would soon be hammered right back to the original worn dimension. I believe Al's suggested repair would work, but as he states, this would be a "cobb job". Take the block to a machinist and have the bearing bore welded or brazed, then rebored. There aren't any specs available as to bore size, but the bearing should fit reasonably snug, though not tight enough to require a press to install it. With a new bearing, it should take a couple of light to moderate raps with a hammer to set it in place. At about $65 for loctite and primer, welding and machining would cost only slightly more and result in a more positive repair. And, INSTALL NEW BEARINGS. Ask yourself this question. "What kind of repair would you do if this had happened on a Kohler?" Anything less is leaving yourself open for failure, and another reason to blame the engine for YOUR failure to do a proper repair. ;) Pat

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MDB
quote:
Originally posted by maxtorman1234
dont have time to read replies
But he sure has plenty of time to ditch Briggs engines every chance he gets..... The offer still stands I will ship you two Kohlers and you ship me those two JUNK Briggs that you are having so much trouble with.....

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PatRarick
What really gets me, is that this kid has been on this earth for fewer years than most of us have in experience with these engines, yet he KNOWS that every Kohler problem is due to "operator abuse and neglect", while every Briggs problem is a "design flaw". Pat

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HubbardRA
He told me a Kohler wouldn't fit into a B110, so I posted pictures of the 14 Hp Kohler in my 61 Wards. Guess he doesn't have time to look at those. He was worried about having to cut the frame to get the engine in. Mine is not cut at all, and doesn't even have a notch from the factory. I guess that if something takes a little thinking, then it is impossible. According to him, Briggs are bad engines from the factory, but the Kohler engines are too large to fit in the tractors. Guess he needs to sell that B-series tractor, and go back to the 300-400 series tractors that he liked so well.

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Mith
If I read right the problem is that the bearing is loose in the hole. Get a coke can, put it in the hole, and force the bearing in. The coke can will mean that the brearing is tight in the hole. Trim off the coke can and its done, tight in the hole again. I have had almost every type of engine. Had problems with all types I've had. Doesnt mean one is worse than the other, though I would reckon that most new engines are worse then old ones. As to engines size, I have a 10HP Briggs that is physically bigger than the 12HP Kohler. Any engine will fit in, the only problem is finding a lever big enough to force it in :D

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ZippoVarga
Might suggest moving this to a members only forum due to the personal nature the post has taken. My take on the whole situation is the same as I once mentioned. And was mentioned again here. The Ford guy buying a Dodge theory. I'm a Briggs man. I dont like Kohlertoilets. But that doesnt mean they're not good engines. They're just no good to me. Graham, Take Mike up on his offer.....ship him the Briggs instead of complaining about them all the time and he'll send you a couple Kohlertoilets. Then we can get back to listening to your banter on how great the Kohlers are instead of having to listen to your narrow minded "opinions" that all Briggs are junk from the factory and that all problems with Kohlertoilets are operator error. Just my .02 worth.

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D-17_Dave
The repairs suggested I'm sure will work. However this is a 243000 series engine so the crank bearing ride in an end cap on the rear and you have access to the front bearing to check it so replaceing the worn bearings and end caps would be an easy fix. Theres a good chance that new bearings will be a tight enough fit not to need any mdifications to run. I'll go with Al's theory on the base for the problems as bad bearings. But if the stand is taken that it's all juck anyway, why fix it or waste time worrying about it. I'm to busy to help any more on this subject. You'll just have to deal with it the best you can.

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powerking_one
Graham, That block sure looks filthy on the outside for just having done a "rebuild" on it. The first rule one follows when doing a quality rebuild job on an engine is cleanliness, cleanliness, cleanliness (inside and out). Second is to thoroughly inspect all moving parts for wear, looseness, binding, clearance, roughness, etc. Al is probably on the mark with cause of your misfortune. I would believe that you got some dirt into the ball bearing and it seized. Did you pull the crank out and inspect the bearings when you did your "economy" grade "rebuld"? How did you clean the inside of block, cylinder, valve seats/guids before reassembly? Maybe you didn't? Tom (PK)

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msiebern
I often search through the archives here for reminders and referance. Here is one that covers a lot of the possible causes. http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24652

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patrician12
The bearing is no good and the outer race spun in the housing.That bearing at times had to have a hitch in it.New bearings and peene the block for the outer race to grab into should work.We do it all the time on front auto spindles.

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maxtorman1234
quote:
Originally posted by powerking_one
Graham, That block sure looks filthy on the outside for just having done a "rebuild" on it. The first rule one follows when doing a quality rebuild job on an engine is cleanliness, cleanliness, cleanliness (inside and out). Second is to thoroughly inspect all moving parts for wear, looseness, binding, clearance, roughness, etc. Al is probably on the mark with cause of your misfortune. I would believe that you got some dirt into the ball bearing and it seized. Did you pull the crank out and inspect the bearings when you did your "economy" grade "rebuld"? How did you clean the inside of block, cylinder, valve seats/guids before reassembly? Maybe you didn't? Tom (PK)
THanks for your input, but the picture makes the bit of crap on the outside look worse, it is not enough to cause any harm. the rest of the engine has been cleaned, i did not get anything on the valve seats, guides or cylinder when i reassembled it. it staid perfectly clean, I am known to be very overly fussy and perfectionistic when reassembling an engine, i have not had a problem with kohlers. Kohlers are good, so are some briggs, but lets quit arguing and just help each other out, i only talk about the kohlers being better, as everyone else thinks the briggs are better, you guys tell me kohlers are crap and give reasons, i tell you what i think and why. See, its not just me its everyone, this club is heading the wrong direction, and i agree i could be a part in it, but its more than just me. Im not complaining, just wondering how i will fix this. I am really short on time, i will agree not all kohlers are good but neither are they bad, same with briggs. I have been away a few days sorry i cant devote my life to reading all the replies, now i have time and i have to explain this so you guys dont run all over me like youre doing. I realize i have been a bit hard to get along with, we all have problems and its not just me, others here are like this too, once again, i appreciate your help and i will try to get this fixed, but lets agree, we could all stop knocking briggs and kohlers down and try to help the people with troubles,

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maxtorman1234
quote:
Originally posted by HubbardRA
He told me a Kohler wouldn't fit into a B110, so I posted pictures of the 14 Hp Kohler in my 61 Wards. Guess he doesn't have time to look at those. He was worried about having to cut the frame to get the engine in. Mine is not cut at all, and doesn't even have a notch from the factory. I guess that if something takes a little thinking, then it is impossible. According to him, Briggs are bad engines from the factory, but the Kohler engines are too large to fit in the tractors. Guess he needs to sell that B-series tractor, and go back to the 300-400 series tractors that he liked so well.
Sorry, where are the pictures posted? I want to keep the tractor origina, you said you had to move the hood, i dont want to change anything just bolt the engine in, if i didnt careabout the machine id alter it. Briggs are great from the factory but my experience says they decline in performance as they age.

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Chris727
The K-Series will probably fit without a hood mod on your B110, Rod's tractor was a 725 style which had a smaller engine and lower hood from factory, the B110 has lots of space.

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