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Sandy_Lake_Imp

Magnum 20hp

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Sandy_Lake_Imp
Well sometimes we get lucky. I was in the right place at the right time and picked up a magnum 20hp (twin cylinder) out of an AC 1920 for free (it was going into the junk pile). This engine ran when it was taken out 6 years ago and it is not stuck. I will overhaul it. I want to put this into my 3314V pulling tractor. Has anyone put a twin into the 700 / 3400 frame? I know I will have to do some cutting to make it fit. Unless of course someone is about to throw out an old 900 / 7100 twin cylinder frame. Any thoughts and advice (and comments) are always appreciated. Thanks, Mike.

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Sandy_Lake_Imp
Hi, I have put a number of twins in these tractors, mostly V-Twin Vangards. It will go in, I know of a commercial cutter with 3 of these with Kohler KT19s and Mag 20s. When we put the Vangards in 3400/7000.700 familywe cut the Angle braces on the frame and weld a brace in accross the frame underneath. We send this part with our kits. As long as you are fabricating it all you are free to take any approach. In our kits we try to have it as close to bolt in as we can, normally with no welding if possible. Here it is not possible. With the opposed twin, you will have to trim the side rails. The easiest way is to clamp an angle iron on the side of the frame and lay a torch [BLUE WRENCH] on the angle and use it for a guide to get a nice straight cut. If I try to cut it without a guide it looks like "Primitive Pete" did it. It should not be that bad. If you don't want to mess with changing the wiring, we make a changeover kit that all you do is hook up 3 wires and the tractor thinks it still has a battery ignition engine. In your case with a 3314 you are set up for the new Magnum ignition already. A WORD OF CAUTION TO ANYONE INSTALLING ANY OF THE NEWER GENERATION, ELECTRONIC ENGINE ENGINES IN PLACE OF A BATTERY IGNITION SYSTEM. IF YOU JUST FOR A 1/1000 OF A SECOND CONECT THE OLD COIL WIRE WITH 12 VOLTS ON TO THE NEW SYSTEM, YOU JUST VAPORIZED THE SOLID STATE COMPONENTS IN THE ELECTRONIC IGNITION MODULE. EVEN ON A NEW ENGINE THIS IS NOT WARRANTY. Best of luck to you and have fun with it. Al

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Al
Hi, We have only been working on the 3400/7000/700s and 7100/900s. We did put a Command 25 in a 912 and had the problem with the stiffening ribs stamped in the frame as noted above. We made tapered wedge shaped pieces and welded them in on the top of the frame and ground them flat, we then made similar pieces and repeated on the bottom. This gave us parallel surfaces for our bolts. We also had to remove part of the bottom 2 fins of the oil cooler. We will probably never do one of these again as it takes sooooo much time to do these details. In our kits we strive to keep them as near bolt in as possible. We are doing a 400 John deere right now, and still working on the 616. We are re-assessing what engine we will use in the 616/9020 kit. We cannot use the Command and use the factory belts. It is very important to us to do so if possible. We may use a different power unit if we can and not change belts. Another issue is the ducting of the heat. The CHs have a ducting kit, but still require a lot of sheet metal work to avoid "heat recycling" problems. Briggs Vangards have no basic ducting available. We have had Vangards sitting in and the TH Kohlers also. The issue is not to get the engine in, but to get it in and have it run under a full load, [loaded until the governor pulls the carb wide open] for 1 hour in a 110 degree room while maintaining in spec. oil, cylinder head, exhaust, fuel inlet and underhood temperatures. After all of the above,we want it to be as "bolt in" and OEM as possible. Our feeling is that it is more important to take a little more time, than to have problems in a hot environment. These engines HAVE to be adequately cooled. If the 9020 had more real estate, maybe something like the liquid cooled Kohler Ageis would be attractive. With the way it drives and the front axle set-up its tough. However my experiences with liquid cooleds tells me it brings as many problems as it solves. Maybe more. The older tractors have very little real estate also. With the open configuration cooling should be a minor problem. The problems would come with the hood and grill clearance. Sometime when I have a B?, 7??,101,2??? or 30?? in with the engine out I will set one of our Prototype engines in to see what it would take. It the grill could be moved forward and a new hood fabricated would anyone be interested in spending the money. One of our first assessments has to be: Is this model valuable enough that people will buy enough kits to justify all of the engineering and tooling costs? Even we still love these old Queens, would it be more economically feasable to move up to say a 7100 hydro with the heavier crossdrive and hydraulic lift, with a blown engine and re-power it? My thoughts, they are free, so value accordingly, Al

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JeffNemes
Thanks, Al. It looks like a lot of cutting and some rewelding. My biggest concern is the fact that the M20 has the same base to center of driveline dimension as the Briggs and Kohler singles, but the pan (on the tactor) that the engine sits in is not flat! The bolt pattern for the twin is in the unflat area of the pan. If I make an adaptor plate it might be too high to meet the drive shaft inline. Well, I'll keep working on it and at the same time look for 900/7100 twin frame. Mike.

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JeffNemes
I am not sure I agree w/everything that has been stated here. I have a ~1973 3416H. Formerly with a cast iron Briggs now with a Vanguard 16 that I purchased from Northern. The operation was a 100% BOLT-IN. There was an engine mount adapter from simplicity, a cooling fan from Briggs, along w/exhaust and oil filter relocation kit. Again, 100% Bolt in. Now for the bad news. Since I did this 2 years ago and was not aware of this site and the possible re-use that this knowledge would have, I no longer have the list or recollection of the part numbers. I do remember that ( I think ) Mike at simplicity service gave me all the part numbers right off the top of his head. He was incredible. He did state that the 16hp is a bolt-in, the 18hp/20hp was slightly more involved. I can take pictures and post or email. The engine looks nice sitting in there, and the power increase is incredible. Although gone is the really loud exhaust of the cast iron 16hp that would let the neighborhood know I was coming. I even added a oil pressure gauge to the dash just to stay on top of things.

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DBlock
Al, Regarding a repower kit for the Simplicity 700's and AC B-1's: I don't know how many you could sell as complete kits but from the looking I have done the biggest problem is moving the grill forward to gain clearance and maybe stretching the hood to match. If plans were available along with some minor modified/new parts I would probably spring for it. The price for a complete kit, with engine, might make me think again. I love my original B-1 but what happens to the value if it is modified extensively?? Are there engines available that will bolt in without moving the grill and stretching the hood?? Roy

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DBlock
Thanks for all of the input. I really like the idea of bolt it as I get concerned about the strength of the frame when you start cutting. BTW todays Trading Post paper has a 18hp Vanguard - 0 hours for $600. Hmmmm --- something more to think about! Mike

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