vanguard vert twin 16 starter replacement

[quantico]

My 6500 series simplicity / 1800 series deutz allis tractor cranked very slowly last snow storm. There was smoke coming from the red hot to the starter motor. The red insulator melted and the bolt melted inside the housing... surprisingly it still cranks !!! I figured out that my one detailed engine manual covers the older twin 16 briggs , not this newer one, so I have no engine manual. I assume I will just replace the starter with a new one. My question is : Do I have to remove lots of the upper engine sheet metal ??? or can I just remove a bolt or two and get the starter out ??? I would normally just explore, but my garage is currently -8 degrees and I want to be quick and do just what is necessary. I do have a garage furnace, but my free time has been in short chunks. Any suggestions on a good supplier for parts would be appreciated. I know that there are many available, but would like one that you have had good dealings with. I also need to buy a repair manual for my vanguard, again a good source would be appreciated. I have a spare engine that came from my transaxle donor tractor, but it is the older style briggs twin and I have no idea if the starter would be the same. Thanks for any advice. If it was about thirty degrees warmer and had some spare time, I would just wrench until all became clear. My work schedule has been pretty busy, so I just want to get the thing back throwing snow with minimal excitement. Thanks.. scott

[Al]

Hi, You can remove the starter without removing the blower housing and flywheel if you have a 1/4" drive I believe 12 mm shallow flex socket. I can't remember for sure, but I think 12mm is correct and am at the house and can't look. I made a wrench when the Vangards just came out, and finally broke it. Later on Briggs came out with this socket. As I remember thery were between 20 and 30 dollars. I believe Snap On has one also. Even with this socket, they are a little difficult to change. They are in no way compatible whith the opposed twin starters. The most important thing to be careful of is the altermator wires are routed out behind the starter and if they are not positioned correctly, will get crushed against the block and cause the stator of the alternator to let the canned smoke that is put in at the factory excape. We have had tractors that were several months old fail, and the wires were crushed and it took some time for the insulation to "cold flow" and let the wires contact the block. Also it would happen quicker in the summer when the engine got warmer. Good luck, Al Eden

[andrewk]

Hi Al, all, Good post Al- I think its a 13mm socket. Then again, I'm not at the shop either. Briggs buys it from Snap-On... the one I bought from Briggs had a Snap-On stamp on it, go figure. Probably the only time I would save money by buying off the truck... Use the flex socket and a short extension, and it should come out. Either way, its a pain in the rear to change. Getting the bolt started is worse than trying to take it out. As for parts, I'd call Al. He probably has it. Andy

[PatRarick]

Yep, it's a 13mm 1/4" drive flex socket. Got mine from Briggs and it is also a Snap On. That bolt is really a pain in the rear to get started. If it's a newer engine with the torx recess in the bolt head, it's a little easier to start with a torx driver. I usually keep a few of these bolts on hand when I run into the situtation of starter replacement on a V-twin with the standard bolts. I've made the job a little simpler by using a long allen screw as an alignment stud for the difficult side. Set the starter in place, install the other bolt and tighten it down. Remove the allen screw with a ball type allen wrench. Then use a torx driver to start the difficult bolt and tighten it with the socket.

[1jerry]

I would check for a loose connection before pulling starter. That could produce a high amp pull which could meld your insulation and make a slow turning starter. Well its just a thought from an electrician stand point.

[quantico]

I ordered the socket from snap-on 31.50 TMUSM13A and am waiting on it to continue. I can only see one of the bolts that holds the starter on the engine, there is a metal band around the top of the starter. I will know more when I heat the garage to a temp where I can actually work out there for a while. I have to pull the starter because besides the melted insulation on the starter wire.. the actual lug built into the starter melted leaving the wiring hanging out of the starter, I ordered the 6 point version of the socket, hopefully that will work well to remove the bolts. Thanks for the heads up on the special socket... I appreciate the info. I could really use that tractor for some of the recent snow storms.... thank goodness that I have a couple good walk behind snowblowers to use in the mean time... I had been blowing snow for many of my neighbors to get some play time with the tractor, I bet the neighbors miss the tractor more than I do..

[quantico]

Thanks very much for the heads up on the snap-on socket and the torx replacement bolts from briggs. I removed the starter today after a few minutes with a dental mirror looking for the second bolt that held the starter on to the block. Without your advice I can't imagine an easy way to get at those bolts. I may try to fix the starter instead of replace it.I hope to have the tractor up and running in a few days. Hopefully with the torx replacement bolts I can get the bolts started and get everything happy again. Briggs certainly made the job damn hard to do. I can't imagine why a better bracket system could not be devised that made the bolts easier to reach. What does starter replacement run at a dealer ???? That advice on a long allan bolt sounds like it is worth a try... Thanks very much AL, Andrewk , and PatRarick I appreciate your knowledge and help. I am not done yet, but know that I allready saved quite a few colorful words..... Scott The tractor is back up and happy ... Installing the repaired part only took about ten minutes. I guess having the torx socket was a good thing. Boy does it start quickly now... must have been bad for quite a while.. I used it for snow blowing today, hopefully the last time this year..