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MarksA-C

What is too little hp?

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MarksA-C
I currenty have a 12hp engine in my 6516. But I was offered a trade of the 12hp for a 2 cylinder 14hp briggs. Should I got for it, or keep the 12hp? (the 14hp runs great, and has a external oil filter) (I havn't ever seen the 12hp run)

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MPH
generally, more hp = more gas consumed. If you don't need the hp for the task of the tractor, why support those who choose to destroy us more. Based on my 4040-16hp versa my B-112--16hp, the 4040 burns a little more then twice the gas as the B-112, therefor, I only use the 4040 for work I need the 3 point for or the wt of attachment is more then maxing the B-112.

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MarksA-C
Well MPH, I am going to use this up at my cabin and the grass up there is tall and I am going to need every bit of Hp I can get. This is the usual seen of my trying to use the small 8hp roper. [IMG]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r238/Marksac/Roper_edited.jpg[/IMG]

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shanhamm
quote:
Originally posted by goatfarmer
Why does the other person want to trade?
Thats a good question to consider! I would hate to see you get burned:OB)

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MarksA-C
well, I've done buisness with this guy before, and he has always come through with good parts and stuff. But I do think I know one reason why he offerend a trade with this engine... [IMG]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r238/Marksac/DSCF0341.jpg[/IMG] There is a set of Double PTO pullys and I cant get the first one off. Because its stuffed into the hole of the main set, and It is not coming out! WD-40, PB, nothing.

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Ketchamized
Mark, Do you have a pulley puller? These make all the difference. Also, heat would help. You should check the shaft and make sure it's straight, also the bearings at the shaft hole. It looks like the other guy tried to take the pulley off using a hammer, and could have damaged the shaft or the bearings in the process.

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Ketchamized
Mark, If you have an angle grinder with a metal cutting disc, you could cut the insert pulley in 1/2... Cut from outside to the center, but be careful not to hit the shaft. Use a hand hacksaw to cleanly finish the cutting job at the core. (And to protect the shaft from damage) After that, do the other side. When done, try loosening side to side. Snap the halves off. At that point, you should have access to the set key.


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MarksA-C
Well, I was just wondering if this would work. [IMG]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r238/Marksac/Stuff145345.jpg[/IMG] I would measure the shaft on my 16hp (Same style engine) and then cut 1-2 inches above that. Then use a bolt and get the left overs off the usual way. Would that work?

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Ketchamized
Mark, From what I can tell in the pictures, your shaft is longer than the diagram suggests. I wouldn't cut all the pulleys off... You'd need a pulley so that you can grip onto it when you pull it off. Nothing else will pull it off. I would recommend that you cut off just the 1st pulley and use a pulley puller to pull off the 1-piece pulley set. The first 2 pulleys are built together. The 3rd was an add-on. So, you should treat the first 2 pulleys as an unit. If I remember correctly, my old Craftsman mower had that same pulley system. It bolted on. The bolt was located a few inches inside the tube. If that's true for your engine, you probably could get away with cutting off the last 2 pulleys, just as long as you cut off right below the 2nd pulley. Then you'd need to use a socket wrench to go inside the tube and loosen up the bolt and remove it. Then you should be able to pull off the pulley system with a puller, as long as the pulling fingers are long enough to reach the pulley from the center. But, it might save you the time and trouble to just bring it in a shop and pay them to take it off. Labor rate is usually $55.00 an hour. It shouldn't take them longer than an hour to take it off. They've got the right tools and all. Another option is to leave the pulleys alone and use it as is. Hope you find a way to resolve that issue. :o)

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MarksA-C
The thting is, the 3rd pully is Stuck into the main set. And it isn't budging. I do have a propane torch but I want to do anything possible before Heat.

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skot71
I used PB Blaster, a puller, and a propane torch to get the pulley off the 8 horse I got. I'd put some tension on the puller, then heat the pulley. It would "pop", scaring me to death but moving slightly. I'd crank the puller down and repeat. It eventually came off. After it did, I gave my best Tim Allen "Arr Arr Arr", causing my neighbor to look at me funny. Well, funnier than usual....

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Ketchamized
Mark, Does the shaft extend the length of the 3rd pulley? I would think the shaft is a little bit shorter than that? If it is, you can just cut off the 3rd at the tube right underneath. You can try what Skot71 did, it worked for him. It'll take a lot of work and peruasion to take it off. The only other method I can think of is what I had suggested earlier (the cutting method).

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MarksA-C
[IMG]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r238/Marksac/untitled.jpg[/IMG] This is another idea. Its not that the pulley is stuck, but it has a EXTRA pulley added and its stuck. The extra one is wedged in. So, I have to cut it off. But I'll have the other pully to clamp to get the bolt out and etc...

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Ketchamized
Mark, What Bob suggested is what I've been suggesting all along. I'd cut right underneath the 3rd pulley, which is between the red pulleys in your diagram. It's better to be safe rather than be sorry. :) Based on my past experience with stamped double pulleys like yours, the bottom part of the pulley has a groove stamped into it that acts like a key. There is no key added. The pulley itself has the groove that acts as a key. In other words, if the pulley slips, the entire double pulley is junk and has to be replaced. And in the middle of the pulley would be a 'washer' welded, or rather, stamped in there. That 'washer' is where the bolt goes into the shaft and holds it in place. That kind of double pulley is not keyed in. It's bolted on. The shaft most likely has a thread hole in the middle, and that's how it's secured. It's a different type of shaft than what's seen on the B & S series engines on most Allis/Simplicity tractors. With these kind of pulleys, sometimes you can simply unbolt it and pull it off by hand. Not all of them, though. Chances are, yours are snug in there, which is why I would recommend that you leave a pulley for the puller to grip onto. Unfortunately, you can't just 'unbolt and pull' because that 3rd pulley is in place and blocking that bolt that secures the pulley. That 3rd pulley is a mystery to me. It looks like it was being held in place by the 3 bolts that you removed. It's possible that whoever did this added a 2nd shaft between the 2nd and the 3rd pulley to keep it straight, and the 3 bolts to keep it secured. Leastways that's what I suspect. The only other thing I can think of is, maybe that 3rd pulley has a homemade fix- a bolt welded on the bottom of the 2nd shaft... And is being tightened in, and the 3 bolts on the 3rd pulley stops it from getting loosened. As the below diagram suggests, you should cut immediately below the 3rd pulley, and look down the tube and determine how much further to cut. Make the 2nd cut accordingly. But remember, to leave the 2nd pulley in place. You'll need that there to use the puller. We've all gave you all possible suggestions on how to take the pulley off. These suggestions that Bob, myself, and Skot71 suggested are what we all do to take a pulley off. There just isn't another way. So, at this time, all you can do is try our suggestions. There just isn't another way other than bringing it into a shop. Best of luck, hope it's solved soon! :)


P.S., pulley 1 and pulley 2 are attached, and made that way. 3rd is obviously an add on. Note the metal differences. On Edit: Added diagram. CRS... LOL

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DMedal
quote:
Originally posted by Ketchamized
Mark, Based on my past experience with stamped double pulleys like yours, the bottom part of the pulley has a groove stamped into it that acts like a key. There is no key added. The pulley itself has the groove that acts as a key. In other words, if the pulley slips, the entire double pulley is junk and has to be replaced.
Question: in your experience does that leave the engine shaft intact? I've got a Toro parked with exactly this defect. Wife hit a chain and stalled the mower and the pulley sheared off that grove/key. up til then replacing the 14HP with a 17.5HP had seemed like a good idea. -Don

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Ketchamized
Don, The shaft should be intact. The stamped pulley is made of softer metal than the shaft, so the stamped groove would shear, just like a shear key. It's just a cheaper & easier way of doing it. The only thing that won't be intact is the double pulley (due to the sheared groove) and would have to be replaced. (They're dirt cheap on eBay.) The only way to know for sure is to take off the pulley and check. I always love the idea of increasing HP power by putting on a bigger engine. But if your Toro is a newer one, chances are, the transmission would be aluminum, and you'd be better off leaving the original engine on. If your transmission is cast iron or thick hardened steel, then by all means go for it. Just be aware, it'll be more work this way. Best of luck!

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DMedal
Note to faint of heart: This post contains discussion of a non Allis/Simplicity tractor. If this is illegal in your jurisdication or if you find such graphic discussion objectionable, skip this post NOW.
quote:
Originally posted by Ketchamized
Don, The shaft should be intact. The stamped pulley is made of softer metal than the shaft, so the stamped groove would shear, just like a shear key. It's just a cheaper & easier way of doing it. The only thing that won't be intact is the double pulley (due to the sheared groove) and would have to be replaced. (They're dirt cheap on eBay.) The only way to know for sure is to take off the pulley and check. I always love the idea of increasing HP power by putting on a bigger engine. But if your Toro is a newer one, chances are, the transmission would be aluminum, and you'd be better off leaving the original engine on. If your transmission is cast iron or thick hardened steel, then by all means go for it. Just be aware, it'll be more work this way. Best of luck!
well the engine was done last year, the stock one didn't survive lack of lube while mowing a ditch. The owners manual probably says don't do that. The pulley sheared the "key" this fall and I've pondered how to repair the pulley w/out much success over the winter as list on that part seemed high. I'll try eBay. Now we have two real tractors (67 LL and a T16H) and I may sell the Toro. One nice thing about the Toro, I can pick up either end by hand. I no longer try that with the good old ones since I read the specs on the T16H and found I was picking up one end of a 755lb tractor. Ugh. -Don

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ehertzfeld
Don, wile this is a club for Simplicity and Allis Chalmers, any tractor talk in Talking tractors in fine by me. Some of us have other tractors besides our Simp and Allis's. I don't but some do. Hope you ad Mark get you engines fixed and back were they belong.

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Ketchamized
Don, It's always good to have a backup. At least it's not a Craftsman, right? :D Toro's aren't Simplicities/AC's, but they're pretty good, in my opinion. I've worked on a few myself before I went into AC/Simplicity mowers. Anyhow, it's possible that your double pulley may be interchangeable with other models, such as Craftsman. Parts for Craftsman are DIRT CHEAP. So, it's possible that it might fit a Toro. I don't know your sizes, but here are some general Toro pulley auctions: (I used "Toro Pulley" and "Craftsman Pulley" as a search string) http://cgi.ebay.com/TORO-PARTS-7-25-REAR-ENGINE-RIDER-PULLEY_W0QQitemZ170090824864QQcategoryZ82246QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/TORO-11-42-RIDING-MOWER-ENGINE-PULLEY_W0QQitemZ190067961741QQcategoryZ82246QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/TORO-WHEEL-HORSE-DECK-AND-DRIVE-PULLEY-ENGINE-PULLEY_W0QQitemZ190068654894QQcategoryZ82246QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/CRAFTSMAN-RIDING-MOWER-ENGINE-PULLEY_W0QQitemZ180058605913QQcategoryZ82238QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

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