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bluecap24

New Mower

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bluecap24
Hey all. Bought my first simplicity! :D Nice addition to the allis's and Agco. It is a cfc20. Front cut mower. The deck and "tractor" are in good shape. Just a few small things that need fixed. I mowed with this same model mower for 2 years at the neighbors as a summer job. Just one problem. It has a Kohler M20 that has a cracked block. C So what do you guys know about the kohler magnums? I know the K series and the v twin, but haven't heard good things about the magnum. The guy said that he had it rebuilt and the next year he was mowing and it started to smoke and he shut it off. He pulled the motor and took it back to the shop and they said that it was a crack in the block around the oil filter. He claims that it didn't run out of oil it was just the oil dripping from the block that was smoking. It turns free and has compression. So what do you all think? I will try to get some pictures of it. In case you wondered it is a 1691968. Thanks, Jim

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MPH
If it were in my yard, I clean it up real good, grind a little V down the crack and JB weld it. My dad once JB'ed a V back into the block of a push mower where the rod came out and mowed with it for many years. This is assuming the crack isn't located where a shaft rides inside.

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bluecap24
Well I am now thinking that I might have just gotten lucky. I called my local simplicity dealer who I have know for years and trust him completely and explained my deal. He said that if it did just develop a crack without blowing up that it would be the first one he has ever seen do that. Unless poorly mounted or such. He said that the most common problem with those engines was the oil seal behind the flywheel popping out and pumping them dry. He suggested filling it up with oil and bench starting it to see where this crack is. So got home today and I was a perfect 74 degree day to do some investigating. I hooked up the fuel line and used jumper cables to jump the starter. This thing has so much compression that it would run fast until it hit a compression stroke and quit. Part of that was a slipping bendix clutch thingy that was oil soaked. Cleaned the bendix and it would turn over. So as I was doing that it started to flip oil all over the place. What a mess. So dis-assembly began! I removed all the sheet metal and removed the electrical and flywheel. And what did I find.....You guessed it a popped out oil seal! Figuring now that since I had it all pulled down to its birthday suite that it was a good time for a good bath. Which made me suspicious how the other guy knew it was a cracked block when it was covered in grime. Two rounds with engine degreaser and it was shiny new. I then got out the flashlight and inspected the block like I was on CSI. I can find no signs of crack anywhere. I even went in and had supper and came back out with fresh full eyes and couldn't find anything. Tomorrow I am going to pick up an oil seal and probably new oil filter and head gaskets since I want to inspect this guys rebuild job. Hopefully my dealer buddy was correct and it was just a popped out seal. Time will tell. Sorry to ramble but I just had to share my story since I think it is going to have a happy ending. :D

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bluecap24
well I put it all back together with a new seal and new oil and filter, new plugs and it fired right up. It was putting out a lot of smoke after it ran for a little while. I think now that it was just oil in the muffler from someone tipping it on its side before I got it. It cleared up after a bit. First problem: The oil seal popped out again. I removed the flywheel and tapped it back in. This time I went in farther. I was afraid to go too far because the repair guy said that they can fall inwards too and then it is a real mess. Is this common? anyone have any good suggestions on how to prevent this? I was thinking of getting some of the loctite "super" glue that we have at work and cleaning around the outside with rubbing alchol and putting a few drops around where it meets the block. Good idea? Second Problem: It starts and idles fine but it doesn't want to rev up. It just starts to die out and backfire. I took the carb apart and cleaned it, but it was raining so I couldn't fire it back up last night. Third Question: How noisey are these motors? It sounds like it may have a slight knock, but I am not sure. I don't have any of the shields on it so I might just be hearing the valve train and such. I know that the briggs on my generator and power washer have valve train noise that I don't have on my other kohler and they are brand new. My father in law is a kohler guru too and I think I will have him take a look at it tonight. He is not a fan of the magnum series so he may be a little biased. Thanks!

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UCD
Check the crankcase breather. (PCV) Positive crankcase ventilation valve. If this is dirty or plugged it will build pressure and blow the seal out.

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HubbardRA
If the seal keeps popping out, you may want to stake it in with a punch. I would only do this as a last ditch effort, because it would be very difficult to remove again after it is staked in.

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ambler
While you have it out drop the oil pan and check the governor. I think if its yellow its been overheated and should be replaced. Otherwise it will fly apart and over rev. You have the service manual don't you?

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bluecap24
Ambler, I have the service manual but it doesn't have an oil pan. It is a 2 piece aluminum crankcase that splits in the middle. To check the governor I would have to remove the jugs an pull the case apart. I will have to check tonight and see if I can see the gear through the oil fill since it is right above the gear. At least that what it appears like in the manual. How yellow is to yellow and is the exploding gear common on the magnum or just the k and kt series? Maynard, I wondered about the crankase pressure. I checked the breather assembly and it looks fine. The umbrella check is in place and clean. I know that I lossened the oil fill cap when it was running and it really wanted to blow out that when I easily lifted it open. Thanks for the input.

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MikeES
Jim, First the twins have governor shaft slipping problems. Go through the governor set up before taking anything apart. I have 2 twins that came to me that "have a broken governor". They were both fixed by by reseting the governor arm and carb adjustments. As far as the crankcase pressure. Kohler has a replacement kit for the old plastic umbrella valve. This is replaced with metal reed valve. You may lots of blow by causing too much crankcase pressure even with a proper working PCV. The service manual for the M20 is Kohler part# TP-2204-B. It is a good engine, better than the a KT, and definitely worth fixing. In good condition they are very smooth with lots of power, quick starting. We use one in our pulling tractor, and out pulls even the 25hp V-twins.

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ambler
Mike, I think checking the governor adjustment is good. I just remember Al talking about governor being suseptable to flying apart after the engine has been overheated. Jim I'll try and find that post. I have two ultimas with M20s and they can sure grunt.

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bluecap24
Thanks guys for the help. I will check the governor adjustment tonight. Will this cause it not to rev up? I am still having a problem getting it to rev up. It starts and idles fine. When you give it gas it kicks the governor and starts to die. When we squirt gas in the carb it will take right off and rev up. Sometimes I can real slowly give it throttle and it will rev all the way up though. The front oil seal is leaking now around the shaft. After inspecting and tugging on things there is up and down movement of the crank in the bearing. It is enough that I can see it and it is leaking oil so that can't be good. I would like to fix the reving problem before I tear it down though. Don't won't to have too many mysteries to solve at once. Thanks

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comet66
There is also a post around here some where again by Al, that talks about a problem with shorted front PTO clutchs taking out the main bearings due to arcing.

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DMedal
You think the "front" main bearing may be failing but you want to see if you can get it to rev higher, under load, before investigating? remind me not to lend you my truck! lol This is probably still a good engine, just needs a little TLC and to have its guts ripped out to get the seal done. If you've not done so already I'd want to do a compression test before you tear it open. Good luck with your project. Keep us posted. -Don

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bluecap24
Well in my defense I discovered the bad main bearing after I was trying to get it to rev up. Needless to say it is now setting with the flywheel off and I am deciding how to proceed. It looks like a fun filled weekend tearing it apart. I will keep you all updated! Thanks

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bluecap24
What a fun weekend! I got it all torn apart to take a tally of the damage. The main babbit bearings are shot and there are some light grooves on the crank. the rings are also bad and the piston is sloppy in the bore. Although the cylinder wall doesn't look to bad. The #1 rod is shot. It left some good marks on the crank too. #2 looks pretty good compared to the rest. So I went to the books and jacks small engines and came up with a parts total of around 400 bucks plus machine work on the crank. I am at another cross roads. I know that the motor and mower will be worth it when I am done, but it will take some time to raise that kind of dough and justify it with the wife. I also am working on a cub 582 pulling tractor with 16hp "stock" kohler. I am afraid I will have to choose to put one on the back burner. And since I have been working on the cub for almost a year with the father in law I think that may win the tug o war. I know it is a cub and not a simplicity, but he donated the chassis and rearend to my cause so I had a running start at least. Please no lashings. :D So how bad do the grooves in the crank need to be to worry about them? I know that everyones engine out there has some wear after 16 years right? Thanks guys!

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cahickm2
The motor in my 2112 has NEVER been reuilt. Its from 1968 and has a slight tick, like is needs some valve work. No backfires, no sputters, plenty of power. Gotta love those old Briggs motors.

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bluecap24
I took the motor over to my father in laws and we measured it all up. Looks like 500 bucks in parts in machining. The crank needs machined and it needs rings, rods, bearings, honed. The father in-law as I said is very partial to the old k series twins and not these aluminum blocks. He thinks that even if we rebuild it that the life span of these motors is only a couple three years and it will need it again. And this is not due to a shotty rebuild because he has built many tractor pulling motors and several truck motors. He said that once those motors are taken apart and rebuilt that they are never the same. Does anyone have a magnum or kt that was rebuilt. How long has it lasted or did it last? I am sure that someone has one. He wants to find an old k series and put that in there. Which I am not sure will fit in the compartment. Still probably looking at 300 or more to freshen it up plus what it takes to buy one in the first place. And please no Kohler bashing. I just prefer the kohlers and have nothing against the briggs. I just don't have experience with the briggs. Thanks, Jim

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andrewk
quote:
Originally posted by ambler
While you have it out drop the oil pan and check the governor. I think if its yellow its been overheated and should be replaced. Otherwise it will fly apart and over rev. You have the service manual don't you?
A governor gear will yellow just by being run. There is a difference between a burnt one and a used one, but they all yellow, fyi. Andrew

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andrewk
quote:
Originally posted by bluecap24
I took the motor over to my father in laws and we measured it all up. Looks like 500 bucks in parts in machining. The crank needs machined and it needs rings, rods, bearings, honed. The father in-law as I said is very partial to the old k series twins and not these aluminum blocks. He thinks that even if we rebuild it that the life span of these motors is only a couple three years and it will need it again. And this is not due to a shotty rebuild because he has built many tractor pulling motors and several truck motors. He said that once those motors are taken apart and rebuilt that they are never the same. Does anyone have a magnum or kt that was rebuilt. How long has it lasted or did it last? I am sure that someone has one. He wants to find an old k series and put that in there. Which I am not sure will fit in the compartment. Still probably looking at 300 or more to freshen it up plus what it takes to buy one in the first place. And please no Kohler bashing. I just prefer the kohlers and have nothing against the briggs. I just don't have experience with the briggs. Thanks, Jim
Any rebuild done right will last as long as the first go-around. Anything properly maintained will also last a long time. Take care of it like you would your car (with consistent maintenance) and it will be just fine. I think we rebuilt a couple when I worked for Al... that might bring up sore memories for Al, as the guy that did them overlooked some things, if I recall it correctly. A couple other M series that went through the shop I never saw again, but that was nearly 4 years ago. Looks like we are all waiting for Al to chime in...:D BTW, I think he repowers CFC mowers too... not sure though. Andy

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