Can't get 23D to run anymore ( possible answer?)

[GWGAllisfan 159]

The landlord I have been restoring had a 23d engine. I decided to put it back when I redid the tractor, instead of the 10 horse that was on it. Two weeks ago the engine in the tractor frame, put in fuel and it started right up, idling since there wasn't a throttle cable hooked up, but it ran fine for half an hour or more. I was able to do that 2-3 times. I just pushed the tractor back in the garage, and continued putting parts on it, touched NOTHING on the engine. Yesterday it was finished. Problem. When I tried to start it the first time, It wouldn't start. Hooked up a jumper to truck, turned it over and got it to run a little. As soon as I tried to accelerate, the engine died and wouldn't re-start. Waited about an hour or so, cut the grass with the 712, tried again. Same result after much cranking. it died as soon as given gas. This time it wouldn't start back at all. Might have fired one or two time in 30-45 minutes. Choke didn't help, holding throttle closed didn't help. Went all the way to flooded, wet plug, which I cleaned and then cranked with fuel off and plug out to clear it, still nothing. 3 different plugs tried. Also let it set overnight and tried again, still nothing 1. It has fuel, and fuel would run out carb body after long cranking. 2. Fuel is being sucked into engine. This can be seen as cranking begins. Also can feel it with hand over carb throat. 3.It has good compression, at least by the thumb test. 4. For any of the tested plugs, spark can be seen if they are laid on the engine head and cranked. With the plug in fire will jump from plug top to wire from about 1/8" away 5. Even if a little flammable brake cleaner is sprayed in the plug hole, there isn't a short run produced. Nver known that to happen. 6. Replaced carb with a one of a "known" running engine, same issues. OK here's the question: What's left?

[D-17_Dave 12]

First off I'd try a different plug. A bad plug can show good fire outside the combustion chamber but when compresion is applied it will short and not fire. Secound I'd drain off a cup full of gas by removing the needle from the lower carb body. You may have had some water settle to the bottom of the gas tank. Over time this will displace the gas inside the carb and leave really nothing but water in the carb. The results are even with spark and some outside source of flamible liquid the water vapor will kill the combustion. Third, did you paint over any electrical connections on or near the kill wires. Some paints will conduct current and ground out the secondary reducing the amount of spark created.

[UCD 14]

Do not spray break cleaner in to cylinder It is a cleaner and will wash the cylinder walls.

[Ronald Hribar 125]

I'd lean to a sheared key in flywheel. If that is not the case then I would check wiring as Dave suggested.

[GWGAllisfan 159]

I tried three different plugs. One new, one with only the 30 minute in this engine and one from a running engine. All the same result Tank and carb were filled with new gas, I'll drain the carb bowl and see if that helps. Maybe brake cleaner was a bad idea. Basically I was trying to see, if the engine got fuel, would it run for a second. I painted the wires, but all the connections were new and unpainted. also none of them have been changed since it ran the last time. I have always not understood something about the flywheel key issue. If the point and the armature/coil have to be timed together, if an engine has sheared the key, disturbing the relationship between magnet location and point opening, how can it have spark?

[andrewk 0]

The flywheel is still held stationary by the force of the torqued nut, giving you spark in the wrong place. Might have happened, but is you carb set too rich or lean? Try adjusting the idle jet (I'd go leaner to start with) and see if it will pick up. If not, set it for the best idle, and go to the main jet. I have seen carb adjustments make a world of difference, hope this helps. Andrew

[Robert Kehoe 0]

I would check the points and wires under the points cover.

[Morris 0]

Your timing on this question is good...I'm well into a 23D myself at the moment, on a Toro Whirlwind commercial mower as old as I am. I have had the exact same problems, and no luck. It was running great, then once seemed to die on me, got it running again after it cooled down, and the next day, nothing, and it hasn't run since. Changed points, condensor, coil, cleaned and adjusted carb, changed plugs, still nothing. So, with the above suggestions I have my marching orders, lol. Oh, that brings me to a question...what is the correct spark plug for a 23D engine?

[MrSteele 495]

While you were doing your rebuild, did you tighten the flywheel as it should be, or perhaps accidentally not as tight as it should have been? What you describe is a sheared key. That has happened to me on several occasions, even when I thought I was taking pains to so it right the first time. A simple bacfire will shear a key enough to make it be out of time, especially if the flywheel is not completely tightened. Remember, a key does not have to be sheared completely in two, just offset enough to ruin the timing. The engine will fire as the magnets break polarity, and they will do it without the key in position at all, simply by spinning the flywheel without turning the engine over. Having a spark means nothing until it sparks at the right time. I'd check the key.

[GWGAllisfan 159]

I checked again, all the wires in the points box are OK. I tend to think even though it seems to have a good spark in air, it's too weak a spark for firing under compression. It's weird how it would run then just quit. If I had a spare battery coil I'd try it and see what happened. If it ran better then, I'd feel better pulling the motor to check the key. Can you still get the 23d flywheel key? (221613 is the number I have)

[gregc 3]

quote:

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Can you still get the 23d flywheel key? (221613 is the number I have)

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Yes.

[GWGAllisfan 159]

Did a test this afternoon. I think this indicates either: A: current armature/coil doesn't have enough spark to fire under compression B: spark is enough but at the wrong time, meaning slipped flywheel/broken key C: Both A and B I took the automotive coil from the B-10 converted last fall and temporarily wired it into the points. After enough time for fuel to get to the carb, the motor started right up, and ran mostly OK, some fuel adjustment needed, but close to like it should. I'm assuming the next step would be pull the motor, check the key and possibly replace the coil. I am tempted to go battery ignition, but in an effort to keep original.... Opinions advice and suggetions desired

[Morris 0]

GWG, Switching to battery ignition will solve some things but it's like you say, then it won't be original. Consider this: a reputable dealer in Raleigh (Briggs dealer) gave me the prices on a coil, condenser and points for this engine, and they totaled over 170.00. I can say with 100 % certainty you can get those parts much cheaper elsewhere, but they're still not free. So cost is one factor. Second is the hassle of doing the work. Is it worth pulling the engine to replace something major like the coil? Depends on the tractor or mower, but in dealing with mine I have decided to go with the battery ignition (assuming my last few attempts to get some fire fail tomorrow). All depends on how much you want to put into it and what you want to get out of it.