New machine a 6008, not 8008

[stumpy 0]

Hiya folks, Just picked up my latest rig...the one the fella had listed as an "8008" (a typo). It's an early 80's vintage Broadmoor II 6008...used but well-maintained, complete with an A-1 condition deck and a once-used tiller, all attachment gear, and a folder full of manuals and parts lists. I'm working with a couple of scouts who do yard and garden work around our small town to fund their various projects, so they're happy to see the tiller attachment. The gentleman gave me the whole kit-and-kaboodle for sixty bucks total...good deal, eh? Nice guy who wanted to see the machine functional and being used. I re-installed the rear lift mechanism and put the tiller on today to see how it fit...very easy and nice. Here's a pic:

Now the bad news: 1) Needs a battery, which is no problemo. 2) The engine is froze tight...a slightly bigger problemo. I've only messed about with old cast iron Briggs and Wisconsins...this one is a newer devil made of awful aluminuminiummmm... Looks like very little oil in the sump. Sad that a machine very well maintained and kept dies from the one little boo-boo. So...is it worth going through or should I replace. If "replace" is the word, does anyone in Simpletractorland have a cheap 8, 10, or (larger?) laying about pining for a tractor to sit in? I know a similar vintage 10hp will bolt in (the 6010 tractor, correct?), but will anything with slightly more power?...just curious. The original 8hp is a B&S model #191707; Type #5147-01. Tryin' to get her going ASAP....getting late in the year. The boys are going to use my new yard and garden area as an experimental test bed...would like to till and plant before the hot weather...of course, it might not matter...was spitting snow here (but not sticking) off and on all day here...arrrrgh! Another pic:

Adios for now...Happy Trails

[firefoxz1 4]

Most of the time it's not worth rebuilding because you can find a used running engine cheaper than the parts to rebuild. There should be enough room for any L-head single cylinder Briggs engine. Easiest to find right now would be a 11 or 12 hp, of atleast around here.

[SmilinSam 4,161]

Thats just like the 6010 tiller/tractor/42 mower I picked up last week for $100, and yours is better looking than the one I got by a long ways. this one has a newer short block in it. I had to make a tiller bracket from scrath for the tractor. The one I got also had a very badly bent frint axle and wheel which I am in process of replacing with another used one. Your best bet would be finding a MTD with a good running engine for a donor. There seems to be an abundance of those out there that have junk decks or trannies.

[PatRarick 1]

Any single cylinder L-head Briggs, 7 horse and larger, will bolt right in. I'm not familiar with the underhood clearance on these models, so if you go with an engine larger than 12.5hp, you'll need to check the clearance between the head and grill, as well as between the hood and engine shroud. Then again, 12 horse should be well above what you need for power with that tiller and mower deck. There may be muffler issues if you go larger than 11hp. The majority of these engines had a straight 1" crankshaft, but there were quite a few that used a "step" crank. About half the crankshaft length was turned down to 7/8". You'll need to remove the pulley on yours to see which one you need. On edit: Is the current engine an I/C version? If so, it has a cast iron cylinder sleeve so it may be worth rebuilding if the crankshaft is in good shape. Not always, but occasionally these engines that have seized from lack of oil have only aluminum transfer from the rod to the crankshaft and if the aluminum is cleaned off the journal, all is well again with a new rod.

[UCD 14]

The 6000, 6100, series Simplicity and 800 series Allis Chalmers were basicly the same size frame and the 6100 & 800 series came with upto an 18HP engine. Model  HP    MFG#  Eng Model#  Eng Type# 6008   8 1690193 191707 5147-01† 6010 10 1690192 251707 0169-01† 6111 11 1690448 252707 0131-01† 6116 16 1690422 401707 0132-01† 6118 18 1690598 421707 0131-01† * Onan Engine ** Kohler Engine † Briggs & Stratton Engine ‡ Tecumseh Engine

[Tacey 0]

Very nice, stumpy! These 6000 series don't get much love here at Simplicity Tractors Club Inc. Judging by the prices they bring, they aren't much in demand anywhere. As I've said many times, I use my 6011 more than my 3410 Landlord. It cuts great, has plenty of power, and sips gasoline. My main job is grass-cutting, but I also plow snow. Deep, heavy snow is done better by the heavier Landlord, but that's just physics. Maybe I'll just sell the Landlord and get me another 6000 series :D. Tacey

[stumpy 0]

A buddy gave me a Coast to Coast mower built by MTD awhile back. It's a pile of junk, but it does have a double-bagger on the back. I invested about 20 bucks in axle seals and bushings and a couple of hours in total tinkering. It needs a battery and is a bit hard-starting (needs a carb kit), but it does mow and sucks leaves great! The above machine has a 12.5 horse Briggs I/C, model #289707, type #0154-01. I'm thinking it will work...maybe? that's about as much power as I want in the 6008. Unfortunately, the MTD-built POS is my only functional mower, BUT if the 12.5 hp engine will bolt right in the 6008 then it's not a problem...wiring looks a bit different, but shouldn't it fit? I believe both the 190000 and 280000 series /model B&S engines are both L-heads? Reckon I'll take some rough measurements and start wrenchine. figured i would leave all the wiring and the carb/gov, etc. with the tractor and put them on the new engine...I know the stuff is fine on the 6008. With lck I can till the garden tonight.

[stumpy 0]

Whoops...one additional question for the vert. shaft Briggs experts. Did they make significant changes in the L-heads around 1981? For some reason I remember a "demarcation point" around then. Maybe because some of the Briggs repair manuals break things up around then. According to the engine code on the 6008's Briggs 8hp it was built in '77. The 12.5 hp in this MTD donor was built in '94 according to the engine code. Any ideas if it will make a difference? Thanks much

[gregc 3]

I believe 1981 was when they started using some Magnetron ignitions and did away with the points and condenser. Engines from 1983 on should all be Magnetrons.

[Donzo 1]

Just a suggestion-some in the club might think this is sacraligious- but a brand new 12.5 hp I/C is only around $450. For $515 you'd have a sturdy tractor with brand new power.

[goatfarmer 817]

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/default.asp Nice ride, Bob! I agree, check prices at Small Engine Warehouse.

[stumpy 0]

Yup...thought about going the new engine route. Particlarly since this rig is in such good shape. Scraped off the minimal layer of oil & crud after removing the engine this afternoon...looks even better now. Geez, the 8-horse vertical sure was a lot easier to remove than the 12-horse on the B-112....wow! Anyway, we just sent our 8th-grader on her school trip to D.C., Gettysburg, NYC, etc....(the entire 7th and 8th grades go...appx. 35 kids total....every other year). That set us back about $1700, directly out of my tractors/flyin' machines/boats budget, if you know what I mean. The 12.5 I/C in the mtd my buddy gave me is pretty strong, and by using it I can send it's donor to mower Valhalla so I no longer have to look at it, har har. On the other hand, I don't have any great schematic for either of these machines, and the mtd/12.5 has a lot of wires goin' to it...magnetron and all. The original 8 in the tractor has two small wires (kill and start), the starter cable, and the gas line and carb cable...simple and sweet. The cutting and hacking of electrical items will take longer than the mechanical engine swap. After I pulled the old engine I let it sit after dumping some power blaster and marvel oil in the plug hole. Couple of hours later I put a pipe wrench on the shaft just for fun and nudged it lightly...turned right over. Did a quick external degrease job on it, set it on the sawhorse bench and hooked some juice to it and she spun over adequately and had great spark.....hmmmmmmmm....this turn of events is an unfortunate temptation (and I know the long/medium-term chance for success is slim). I can throw it back in the frame in a matter of minutes and have things all hooked up. If it doesn't work I've wasted half an hour....and I wanted to clean the frame under the engine anyway. If it does work I might get a season of tilling, etc. out of her with no hacking, I can leave the 12.5 were it is and sell that lousy mtd for one or two c-notes, and then take my time looking for an older replacement what will bolt and plug right in, or rebuild this one over the winter. Reckon I'll try it for the sake of the argument. Worse thing that could happen is Kablooey!!! goes the engine, and it was a write-off already. I'll dump some good oil in her and watch the level close if things start. Kind of strange how some folks are with maintaining machines though. The machine, deck and tiller are all really very nice. Clearly they cared about the rig, but apparently the simple stuff was overlooked. Low on oil, and the battery (an expensive one too...not the $19.92 Wally-World U-size juice box) was durn-near bone-dry. I have a little low-amperage "battery pal" that at times brings a battery back to living when all else fails, so with fresh water it is now doing it's thing. Can't resist an attempt aimed at a revival for nada dinero. Might be tilling the garden by tomorrow at lunch, might not.

[PatRarick 1]

Wiring should be no problem. You say you have three wires going to the engine on the Simplicity. One should be the kill wire. That should be coming from the top of the blower houseing to a nut on the governer control, near where the throttle cable hooks up. On the MTD engine, it will either be in that location, OR it will be a wire or tab coming through a grommet on the engine shroud. Should be on the carb side coming through the shrouding on the cylinder. That operates the same whether it's magnetron or points. Open to run and ground to kill. Starter cable is the same on either engine. The third wire should be the alternator wire, not the start wire. This wire should be coming from the alternator and out of the blower housing near the top of the starter. On your 6008 engine, this wire should be "clamped" between the starter and the block. On the 12.5, it will either be clamped the same way, or with a clip on held on by the rear starter bolt. This is where I'm confused. According to the information here: http://www.simpletractors.com/simplicity/new_in_1978/8_%26_11hp.htm your tractor should have a dual circuit alternator. There should be TWO wires here. One DC for battery charging and one AC to power the headlights. That should also be the same as the MTD engine, though the connectors are probably different. If you have only one wire from the alternator on the 6008, then you need only to hook to the DC wire from the alternator on the MTD engine. As long as the engines are both original to the tractors (and you don't want to hack any wiring by splicing in the proper connector or wires), you should be able to switch stators between the two engines to retain the proper connector. Remove the flywheel and the stator is held on with four screws. The only additional wire that may be on the MTD engine would be if it is equipped with an "anti-afterfire" solenoid on the carb. If it is equipped with this solenoid, it will be screwed into the bottom of the carb bowl. Remove that solenoid, cut or grind the plunger off of it, clean the metal filings and reinstall. You won't need to hook anything to that solenoid once this is done. You can also do away with the solenoid and purchase the regular screw from Briggs. Price will be either $1.50, part number 691659 if you have the Walbro carb, or $4, part number 694919 if you have the Nikki carb. Throttle cable will hook in the same location on either engine. I'm not sure when they changed, but the earlier versions had the cable attached vertically, while later versions had it hooked horizontally. If it's the later version, your 6008 throttle cable may be too short. Only other problems would be the choke and the muffler. Your 6008 should be "choke-a-matic", where it chokes at full throttle. The MTD may have a manual choke. If so, there are three ways to change this. Many of the 289707's had the provision for either manual choke, or choke-a-matic. A link ran from the choke to the governer control box. A tab on the governer control will contact this link to push the choke closed. On manual choke versions, this tab was bent away from the link so as not to contact it at full throttle. You need only to bend this tab so it closes the choke when the governer control is placed as high as it will go. If that link is not there, you can purchase it from Briggs. Cost will be about $4. Part number is 690480. Or you can simply add a choke cable to the tractor. So far, all seeming complicated problems are actually pretty simple and require no hacking. The only problem I see that MAY be a bigger concern is the exhaust. Original exhaust may fit, but I have my doubts here. May have to do some cutting and welding on the pipe from the engine to the original muffler. Might be as simple as a straight, screw in muffler if it will clear the hood. In any event, if any hacking is required, the exhaust is where that would come in.

[stumpy 0]

Pat, Thanks much for the info and guidance. The old stuff I can do in my sleep...give me a F-M or Wico mag any day and I can makethings work, he he. The newer stuff isn't all that complicated...just unfamiliar territory. I plan on looking for another engine...but if the original has some compression left and works with fresh oil I will stuff it back in the 6008 and use it for awhile. My buddy actually kept this ((my possible engine donor) mtd in his basement...it looks like new for a 13 year old machine. While it doesn't leave a pretty, perfect lawn like a Simplicity/AC, it does do a great job sucking up leaves with the double-bags on the back <BG>. I'll find a donor that's done-for and sell the mtd since it looks nice and works--well--it works like an mtd. Not all that great for those of us use to quality, ya know? Seems likely I'll find another 12.5 I/C since they're common as hens teeth, so I'll just print out your valuable post and save it for the eventual enmgine swap. Thanks again

[Roy 0]

Stumpy, "I have a little low-amperage "battery pal" that at times brings a battery back to living when all else fails," Is that a Battery Minder? Ref: "http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12248.htm" Does it really work? Do you think it was worth the cost? Thanks,

[stumpy 0]

Roy, I picked up mine about a dozen years ago for about 25 bucks, built by the Guest company. I think it has some kind of smart processor in it and puts out +/- one amp. The have a "magnum" verson that puts out about 3 amps now. The small one (mine) has worked to bring life back to boat batteries, truck batteries, airplane batteries, tractor batteries, etc. etc.....so yes, it has been worth it to me. I top the battery off with fluid, andleave this thing on for a day or two. Sometimes I'll "spike" the battery with a 50 amp kick for half a minute after that, then charge with my regular charger at 2-10 amps. Does it always work? Nope. I've had about a 50% success ratio. Here's a link to an example of the unit I have. I bet you could find it cheaper than 60 bucks though. http://www.jmsonline.net/GUEST-2602-BATTERY-PAL-MAINTENANCE-CHARGE.htm

[Roy 0]

Bob, I'll keep my open for a "deal" on a small Battery Minder. Just wanted to make sure their claims weren't advertising hype. Thanks for your response.