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Ketchamized

Repowered 11hp 4211 to 18hp (Upd. Pics 11/2)

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Ketchamized
I have a decent condition 1980's 4211-H hydrostatic tractor with a 11HP engine in it. The cylinder wall got scored because the head gasket fell apart inside the engine. So, I decided rather than fiddle with the old engine (needs more attention than just the scored cylinder) that I'd just repower the tractor. I mentioned that I needed an engine, and Daniel (Olcowhand) responded, saying that he had a really nice running vertical shaft 18HP engine for sale. ($65, yes, $65) As soon as I saw the price, I jumped on the opportunity to buy the engine. Thank you, Daniel for "a can't refuse" deal. 8) The tractor was previously owned by Ken L. (Goatfarmer), and then William V. (Wminmi) and now I own it. Isn't that cool? The new 18hp engine belonged to a member here too. Daniel P. (Olcowhand). Thank you guys, for making this tractor and engine available. If I ever decide to sell the tractor in the future, I will try to sell to a member here and keep it in the "Simple Tractors" family. This is the tractor prior to the repower: (Unfortunately, I didn't think to take a picture of the hood open)


This is the new 18hp I/C Twin Cylinder engine, 694cc, cast iron bore: (Note how I cut a hole in my work bench to accommodate the shaft.)


This is the 4211-H without the engine in it: (I was impressed at the paint job being intact)


I was very surprised to find that the 11HP and the 18HP had the same shaft diameter. Note the differences between the two pulleys. According to the parts manual, the 18HP engine comes with two different size shafts. Luckily, I had the right shaft size. I was able to switch pulleys without a problem. Fit like a charm. I sure got very lucky. dOd The pulleys are oriented in the picture as if they go upwards on the bottom of the engine onto the shaft:


I am expecting maybe +1 mph increase, and a better cut. (Faster moving blades due to the extra power.) The engine is still a 3,600 RPM engine, So, if there is any improvement, it will simply be due to the fact that the governor probably won't need to be kicked in as often as the old one. (The old 11HP leaked air at the head and had fair to poor compression) Additionally, the new 18HP engine has a much less restrictive muffler and airbox, as well as an oil cooler. Another thing I will have to be careful about- wheelies. 4i At this time, the engine has been placed on the tractor. The engine mounts and frame mounts match all 100% without modification. I put on the original 11HP pulley on the 18hp. Lines up very nicely. Muffler fits in the pre-cut muffler hole on the frame. It does seem that the hood MIGHT fit without modification. If it won't fit, a modification will be very minimal and simple. The engine has NOT been bolted down yet, because the engine mount holes are slightly smaller than the ones on the 11hp. (The person who worked on it forced bolts into the 11HP's mounts.) Tomorrow, I will be buying 4 brand new bolts to put in and secure the engine to the tractor. My biggest concern at this time- the engine is so big that it is only 1/8" away from the plastic gas tank. I am concerned about the heat melting the plastic and possibly igniting the gas. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to remedy this? I am thinking about maybe buying an automobile muffler shield and placing it between the engine and the gas tank. Think that would work? Any other suggestions? Here is a pic to show how close the engine is to the gas tank. It is too close for my comfort. (The 11HP was 2.5" away from the gas tank):


Here is the new sump from Josh (Joshuaareed), looks great. Thank you very much, Josh.


The new sump after some cleaning:


The new sump gasket:


The sump gasket finally arrived in the mail. Next step would be to drain the sump pan and put on the new gasket. Pics will follow soon.

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joshuaareed
Those 18 HP brigs are great runners, I have had 2 in the past. you might be able to use some metal panning found in your local Home Depot Heating supply section, and you can cut it to the size you feel you need for the heat shield. The metal panning is relatively inexpensive and still thin enough to be bent by hand if you need to.Good luck.

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Ketchamized
Kenny, Thanks. :o) It looks even better now. The first picture was taken when I first got it. Since then, I've cleaned up the body and put on a new seat. Will include a full picture of it after it's all done. :o) bud119195, Awesome, that's great to know. I was hoping that the plastic would be heat resistant, considering its use. I'll report back here on how it mows as opposed to before. :o) Joshua, Thanks for the information on the heat shield. Bud119195 above said that he has a similar setup with no problems. I'll check out Home depot and see how they go for. If they're cheap, I'll just put it on for peace of mind. Otherwise, I'll leave as is. Thanks again. :o) I haven't run the engine yet, as it is just sitting on the frame. But Daniel (olcowhand) started it for me when I was at his farm. It ran great there... And I was thrilled to find out that it has an iron cast bore. The more I look at the engine, the more I am in disbelief that I got it for $65. :o)

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Ketchamized
Well, here's an update: I bought the new mount bolts for the engine. I put the bolts in... Tightened one flange. Went on to the other. Tightened it... Felt funny. Looked at the flange, and I realized I had over-tightened it and cracked it. As soon as I took the bolt out, the flange broke off the block. Then I knew I had to take the engine off anyway, and took out the bolt from the other one, and turns out I cracked that one too. MAJOR MAJOR BUMMER. I know, I know, "how can you overtighten?" My right hand has no feeling in it, (I accidentally smashed my hand a few years ago, and had nerve damage). I also have a lot of natural strength. It wasn't that hard to overtighten break the flange. So, this knucklehead has to go and buy a new sump. (Bottom end, oil pan) It'll be $75 NOS on eBay. But I'm running low on cash, so my project is on hold until next month. Sure am kicking myself right now, as it's an expensive mistake. That's it, I'm getting a torque wrench.

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joshuaareed
Would that be the same engine found on a MTD or Wards Powercraft? if so I might have one sitting around I might be willing to part with cheep. The ones I have are Briggs 18HP IC twins.

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Ketchamized
Joshuareed, The engine I have is definitely a 18HP IC Twin. The engine model number is 422707. The picture of it is above. I need just the sump (Oil pan) part of it, that has the mounting flanges on it intact. If you have that for sale, I would definitely be interested. How much would you be asking? Thanks, Erick :o)

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MarksA-C
Hey Erick. My 6518 has the engine super close to the plastic. There are no worries about it. As for the bottom piece, the oil sump...I think Bob (BLT) might have one off of one of the engines he bought from me. The 14hp-18hp seem to be the same size except for the cylinder and displacement....or whatever.

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ZippoVarga
Hey Erick, If you broke the flanges then there's another possible problem to look at. Are the flanges resting flat against the frame? I have torqued these engines down pretty hard and have never had such a problem as the one you had. You may be pulling the engine to the frame and because of some obstruction closer to the shaft hole the tabs are breaking off. As for the heat concern....the blower housing on these 18hp opposed twins dont get hot and act as your heat shield on their own. Once you get it running you will see for your self that heat is not a concern as all the heat from the engine is diverted downwards and forward. When you get the top blower shroud off you will see that the fins on the heads are angled forward towards the muffler and exhaust ports. Looking forward to the finished up-grade/install!

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Ketchamized
Sean, Aha. Thanks for the explanation for the fins- that does make me feel a lot better. After I got it mounted, the engine ended up being more closer to 1/4" away, rather than 1/8", so that's great news. RE: The engine flanges, well, I took a real close look and I realized that the non-threaded portion of the bolts that I bought was about 2mm or 3mm longer than original. It's not that much, but it was enough to wedge into the flanges and break them off. :o( The good news is, I am currently working on finding a new sump with intact flanges. I'm waiting to hear from a guy here on this site and another guy on another site. So, one way or another, hopefully, it'll work out. I've never replaced a sump on a 2-cylinder engine before. Is there anything I need to watch out for? It seems to me that the bottom of the shaft does rest in the sump. Anyone here know the bolting pattern for the sump part to the rest of the engine? And, anybody know what the torque is supposed to be? :o) As soon as the sump is all set, I should be able to proceed with no further problems. The engine fit in really great, pulleys fit, everything lines up. I already have a new gas line waiting. The only thing I would need to do is buy a choke cable and a longer throttle cable and I should be good to go. There is one thing I love about the hood, the sides are in 2 pieces- tied together by bolts. So, I'd be easily able to add sheetmetal between the two pieces to compenstate for the engine height. The hood I have is kinda in bad shape, so I have no reservations of making holes on the top so the engine can suck cool air from the top. Do you think it'll make a difference if I made a hood scoop for it? Or shouldn't I bother? Opinions? Suggestions? Thanks

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joshuaareed
I don't think you need a hood scoop I did not have the motor anymore but I did score one for free from a friend for you. Just let me know if you want the whole thing or just the sump. I will ship either one to you. Have fun.

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firefoxz1
I think I have a sump pan for that and may make a trade with you if I find it. I notice that still had the original muffler and being that will not be the same I would take that as trade. If this sounds good contact me. Should have read this sooner:(.

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Al
Hi, The 4000, 5000 and 600 frames are very similar. The 6000, like the 6111 and 6211 are basically the same tractor as the 6116, and 6118, also in the 62 series the same. The engine should be basically a bolt in. The hoods are different from the 4000 family. If you note the 5-6000 hoods have air intake openings in the top at the rear. There is a rectangular piece of foam that goes across the blower housing in front of the air intake. This seals against the hood. This keeps the cooling fan from drawing hot air from the front of the engine under the hood, causing heat recirculation problems. You will want to address this issue. The 4000 fam. hood has less area above the engine and along the sides and no air intakes. These slots in the top of the 5-6000 hoods are very necessary and are put in there to make cooling specs. I would recommend making an air dam, and then pulling the hood off and going to a sheet metal working shop that had a louvre punch and have some louvres installed, or something similar. You will want a better source of cool air than you now have. A rod and custom car/ street rod shop could probably steer you to a shop. A bolt on hood scoop would work also. Regarding the dash housing. This side of the engine should be cool and I would not expect any problem there. Most of the heat is on the front side of the engine. Make sure the exhaust doesn't have a pipe that points down to the ground, OR at the front tires. If it blows on the ground, any stopping in the yard with the engine running may/will cause brown killed spots in the grass. Pointing at the tire and the pneumatic tire will become NON-PNEUMATIC, EXTREMELY LOW PRESSURE. On the 5000 tractors, they used the Briggs muffler and a flat exhaust pipe that laid above the frame and came out above the RF wheel. I always thought they created quite a bit of back pressure, but they must be adequate for them to use them. Regarding the sump. I would try to get someone to TIG weld it, or as us old guys would say heli-arced. Unless you get a new one, the wear on the thrust surface will likely be different from yours and the rod alignment may change a little. If it is up good, down bad. This could probably be welded on the engine, weld a little, let if cool, weld a little more etc. You should have some fun with this. Don't think the 4000 frame will let you put the 42" deck on and you should be able to hover, or pull stumps out with the 36. My thoughts, Al Eden

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joshuaareed
Sorry I didn't notice the hood didn't have louvers already cut into it, as Al said you will need air intake, My mistake. I will send you the whole running engine if you prefer. Your call. It is free. I just like helping out new friends and club members as I am a new member. It is my little way of paying my dues for all the info I have gained from all of you guys.

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Al
Erick, Thanks for the e-mail. I would never have seen this otherwise. This is the first time I have looked at this forum. I have my Bookmarks set to take me to Talking Tractors. Once in a great while I take a quick look at Coffee Shop. I usually quickly scan the talking tractors and leave. Sorry I missed you, will have to ck here also. Al Eden

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Dark
If you can't get a sump ill send you one. The gas tanks on some engines were plastic and attached to the tins so I dont see a problem with heat.


"All 422700, 42A700, 42D700 & Similar opposed Twin Cylinders Engines Have Been Discontinued. They did not meet the Federal EPA Standards and are out of production. Short Blocks are also sold out. You will have to repair with individual parts." http://www.tulsaenginewarehouse.com/catalog/briggs/bsvert/42a700.html

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Ketchamized
Joshua and Thom- I sent you a PM. :) Al, Thank you so much for the wealth of information. That eased my concerns, as well as given me a good boost of confidence in what needs to be done. I sure am glad that I asked these questions before I made another expensive & boneheaded mistake. Much appreciated. :) Mark (Marks A-C), I agree, I think it would look good with a hood scoop. Based on what I have learned today in this thread from you guys, this is what I am thinking of doing: 1) Raise the hood high enough to accommodate the engine. 2) Cutting into the hood, and pop-rivet a scoop on. 3) Put foam on the underside of the hood around the hole, to allow only cool air to be sucked into the engine via the flywheel. Mark (Dark), Thank you for your offer, much appreciated. I'm still communicating with a couple guys that have made the same offer earlier on. I should know more soon, on whether if I have a sump, and from whom. :) Guys, I would like to say that I am very grateful for the opinions, offers, and input, I truly appreciate that. It tells a lot about the type of generous men that congregates here. :D dOd On Edit: I removed the picture of a sump, because Mark pointed out that it was the wrong one.

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Ketchamized
Mark, You're right about that. Thank you for catching that. :) As far as I know, there isn't an oil pump on my 18hp engine. The sump/flange I broke is still on the 18hp in the picture that I posted above in this thread. The picture I posted was just a picture of a sump, not mine. I apologize for the confusion. I was going by numbers that I have in my parts manual. I have no idea what it looks like exactly in the inside, as I have not taken the sump off yet. (Was waiting for the new one before I did that to keep my engine protected for the time being.) From what I can tell, there isn't an oil pump on my engine, and there isn't an oil filter on it either. The parts manual shows 3 different sumps available for that engine. I don't know which one I need exactly, since they look almost exactly the same with very slight differences between them. (They all look the same on the outside)

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Ketchamized
Mark, Here are the numbers as promised. Sorry it took a while, been in over my head with a lot of projects and things lately. :D 18HP Twin Cylinder 694cc (SAEJ607) Model: 422707 Type: 1210 01 Code: 88051012

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