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PeppyDan

Loader hydraulic pump help needed

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PeppyDan
Some of you may recall that I am planning to put a Kwik-Way loader on one of my Sunstar tractors. http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=88956 I am starting to plan a little more on this and need some help with selecting a pump. The service guy I talked to at Kwik-Way seemed very knowledgeable about the era my loader was built in. He told me it would probably need about a 3 gmp pump at 1000-1500rpm with 1500 psi. I have looked a surplus center and others for pumps matching this but get more confused the more I look. Can someone please help me to understand what I am looking for or if you have any recommendations on a pump for this unit. My plans are to mount the pump under the tractor directly behind the front axle(where the mower deck drive shaft would normally attach). This will be connected by a coupler. I intend to use the electric clutch to run the pto just like the deck would use. I will be making a 2-4 gallon tank to be mounted between the rear frame rails and the vent/fill tube will be at the back for easy access. This should keep the tank above the pump and prevent the pump from draining back into the tank. The loader control valves will be mount in place of the stock tractor valve and will be controlled by the stock tractor levers. I will be removing the stock tractor lift cylinder and capping the power steering port for the lift cylinder. I hope I have given enough information for you to help me get the correct size pump for this combination. Thanks, Dan

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wilm169
Dan I think this is what you need Case uses these for there drive and to run there hydraulic tillers. http://cgi.ebay.com/case-220-tractor-hydraulic-pump_W0QQitemZ220186550063QQihZ012QQcategoryZ82248QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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PeppyDan
Thanks Levi, Do you know the specs for this pump? I'm not sure I want to buy a used pump that I don't have the specs on and can only go by what the PO remembers about how it worked a year ago. I am willing to pay the price of a new pump just to know that it will work properly and not leak or need rebuilt in the near future. I looked at your profile and didn't see a Gannon Earthcavator Didn't you buy one or two at Portland a couple years ago. Dan

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D-17_Dave
Dan, I'd recommend a pump that's rated at 7.5 to 10 GPM. This will give you a decent flow of oil at a lower engine rpm so you don't have to work your engine as hard just to run the loader. The operating pressures are set by the relief valve in the valve, not the pump. The industry standard is an operating pressure of 2200-2500, so as long as what you select is rated above the 1500 or so psi you need for the loader you'll be fine. You'll never reach these pressures until you dead load the relief valve anyway. Also, never block any hydraulic port until you know the circuit schematic. On your PS valve run a short hose from the power beyond port,(the one your disconnecting) and ad a tee in the return line so this outlet and the tank outlet dump back into the tank or you'll run the risk of busting the steering valve.

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PeppyDan
Thanks Dave, does a larger gpm mean that it will require more power to operate. I have three pumps here and have found one is a hypro C6600 roller pump. The information I found show it to be 19.2 gpm at 1000 rpm. I feel this is too much pump, am I correct? Also I want to thank you for helping me to properly reroute the power beyond port. I would not have a good day if I damaged the steering valve!B)ngr2wah Thanks again Levi for finding that pump, I just don't know enough about hydraulics to spend money on a pump that I don't know is going to work for my application. Dan

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tec2484
These are from northern tools. can run with coupler or belt. http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200329706_200329706 Has to be run with a coupler. (no side loading of shaft) http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200333001_200333001

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Al
Hi, A word of caution, design this to run the pump properly at wide open speed. Having the engine wide open is critical for the hydrostatic when using a loader. Take a look at the parts breakdown for the loader that fit the Sunstar. It has the pump and drive that runs off the PTO and just takes a couple of pins to put it on and off. You could duplicate this. Loaders are very stressfull on hydrostats and they need max hydro pump speeds under these loads. If you were to increase the fluid volume of the pump to 4.5 to 5 gpm, the loader would operate about 50% faster. More would likely cause it to be jerky. The Simpicity loader (Kwik-Way) uses the loader frame for the hydraulic tank. Idealy you will want a full flow filter on the pump input line. Be sure the filter has adequate capacity for your application. If not you will get pump cavitation and it will destroy your pump. You will also need a relief valve in the pressure line to protect the pump. Depending on the control valve you use, it may or may not have one incorporated. Some of the larger dual valves (for 3/4" line) have relief valves built in. Most of the smaller valves do not. Good luck, Al Eden

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PeppyDan
I checked how much a pump from Jack's would cost for the Sunstar, B)ouchB) $675. They don't show what brand/model pump it uses. Al, thank you for pointing that out about the hydro. I plan to use this mostly as a fork lift (80-90% of the time)so for that I want smooth controls but it will also get used for things like mulch, gravel and dirt so I want some pushing power and reasonable lift speeds for that. I do plan to mount the loader and pump in a similar way to the tractor but would like the pump mounted in the back just to keep it a shielded from damage. Do you or Dave have any specific pumps that you would recommend. What do you think of the pumps that (tec2484)Geoge listed. I have no problem spending $150-$200 for a pump that will give me a loader that works right and lasts for years. I measured about 4" for the OD of the electric clutch pulley And about 6" for the OD of the PTO pulley so the pump would run about 2/3 the speed of the engine. Will I need to know the volume of the cylinders to make a better selection for the pump?The bucket rams are 3/4" diameter and the rams for the arms are 1 1/8" diameter but I have not measured the length of stroke for either ram. Here are a few pics of the valve, I was guessing it had a relief valve most visible in the last pic.






Thanks again for all your help!!! Dan

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John_RI
Looks like a fun project Dan. I'd say you did good for 200 bucks! A rough rule of thumb for horsepower is: 1HP/1GPM at 1500psi (3GPM at 1500psi requires approx. 3 Hp). If your pump can pump up to 1500 psi you will be able to lift the same load (weight) regardless of GPM. The GPM will determine the speed at which you are able to lift. As Al stated, you don't want more GPM than is necessary as it will only generate excess heat and make for jerky operation. Calculating the volume of the cylinders will help you get a feel for the speed of operation you can expect with various GPM's - I'd be inclined to follow the advice from Kwik-Way, or at least not vary by too much. Have fun, John

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ambler
Sunstar loader pump is a Parker D12AA2A. This is a aluminum 4gpm pump. pressure is 1500 psi adjusted at valve. do a search on parker and the number, you should be able to get one for about $150. Download the loader manual. a D17AA2A will also work.

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PeppyDan
WOW, you guys are the best! All this information is really helping me to understand more about hydraulics and the calculators from Baum is very useful. Ambler, how smooth and quick is your loader. Do you know the diameter and stroke of your cylinders? Dan

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PeppyDan
I did some searching today and found and few places that carry the Parker pumps. I found both D17AA2A(CW rotation) and D17AA1A(CCW rotation) for reasonable prices. If I put the pump behind the front axle I will need the CCW pump. http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008010109573012&item=9-4128&catname=hydraulic I also found some "selector valves" which would allow me to leave the factory lift cylinder in the tractor and use one lever to operate the rear lift(via factory lift cyl.) or operate one of the loader functions. Would one of these valves hold the rear attachment up if it were switched to the loader control? I realize that my factory cylinder may leak down if it is worn, but if all components were working properly would the valve hold a 3-point box blade in the up position? Dan

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tec2484
Dan I think that valve would do what you want, But call surpluscenter and they can tell you for sure. If the rear lift is working good now I don't think I would change to a different valve though. (imo) But you may have something you are looking at that I don't see. George

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D-17_Dave
Dan, yes. The selector valve would hold, but let me make another suggestion. Replace your dash control valve like you had intended for the convenience of control. Use the same power beyond port from the steering and install a new valve some where on the tractor for the control of the rear lift. By doing this you could also add a set of rear remotes with quick couplings for something like a dump trailer or 3-point angle or top link control like the larger industrial tractors use.;)

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PeppyDan
Thanks George & Dave, that's a good idea. I actually thought about that last night while lying in bed. I'm trying to get a guy I know to sell his 3-point setup, he said he would sell it but wants to get it out before he gives me a price. With a 3-point, I could make a weight box for it and be able to build a box blade for working the drive or dirt. Dan

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ambler
Dan, You can use same system as front hydraulics for an additional cylinder. I believe it is done by stacking the same valve and lever. if you use a pump on the front then you can buy some of the mounting parts from simplicity.

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PeppyDan
Ambler, my brother works at a tool & die shop (machine shop) & one of my brother in law's work at a weld/fabrication shop so making various parts are not a big concern. I have looked at the prices of some of the parts from Jack's and can make my own for a lot less. I may machine a new shaft for the front pto so I don't need to deal with the spline shaft. It can be made from a tool steel and heat treated if needed and this will make it much easier to couple with the pump. Dan

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ambler
Dan I have lovejoy couplings on mmy spline and not the simplicity chain. How about weight. A 300lb tiller would be ideal with weighted tires. Remember you need four ply front tires.

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PeppyDan
What exactly is a lovejoy coupling? I have several 100-125 pound weights lying around but no tillers for a Sunstar. It will have weighted 26x12x12 tires for the back and I'm thinking heavy duty trailer tires for the fronts. Dan

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PeppyDan
Thanks John, It looks to me like the type LC or RRS would be best suited for this application. Ambler, do you know what type and size or have the part numbers of the items you used? Also, where did you order them from? Thanks, Dan

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