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My B-1 has a positive ground. How to fix?


AC_B-1Novice

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I was surprised to see the ground wire ran to my positive terminal. Someone has replace the voltage regulator with what looks like a car regulator. The tractor runs ok but I'm not sure what will happen if I put the cables on the other way. Will I burn something up or should I just let it alone? Also if I put a charger on it do I have to take off the wires as I had to do with my early 6 volt positive ground ferguson? Any help will be appreciated as the previous owner really had this thing multi screwed up. I'm working my way though but what a task. Thanks larry
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I am guessing it is wired that way because the PO probably put a starter-generator from some tractor like a Cub Cadet on the AC. The cub starter turns in the reverse direction from the one used on the AC. By reversing the polarity, the starter would turn in the right direction. I am not sure if it will charge correctly when wired this way, probably not.
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quote:
Originally posted by HubbardRA
I am guessing it is wired that way because the PO probably put a starter-generator from some tractor like a Cub Cadet on the AC. The cub starter turns in the reverse direction from the one used on the AC. By reversing the polarity, the starter would turn in the right direction. I am not sure if it will charge correctly when wired this way, probably not.
Sounds like Rod's theory is very possible and I agree it will not charge the battery. The voltage regulators on these tractors does look like a car one but they are not interchangable because they will let the S/G burn itself up. The headlights will not care which polarity it is.
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Thanks guys, I will check in the morning and see if there is a number on the generator. I know the voltage regulator was changed because it doesn't fit, it is too big and is held only by one bolt. Also they pried the hood out to make room for it. I'm glad they didn't cut the hood out because it looks as though I can eventually bend it back. I suppose I will let it run this way at least until I learn a lot more about this tractor. He had the push bars switched and put the rod on backwards and even bent the lift rod for the snow blower so it would work on the blade. I had to do a lot of bending and straightening to get it back and able to work on the blower but at least it is now working. Good thing I bought some manuals. Thanks again to all and I know I will be counting on all your kindness and knowledge for some time till I can get to know my tractor. larry
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Suspect Rod is right about the S/G being a CCW unit. Note that generators will charge with either polarity. In olden times some people would charge their batteries backwards and the generators still worked fine. The fix was to completely discharge the battery, recharge it with the proper polarity, and then "re-polarize" the generator to the new polarity. But, as Rod pointed out, if you do this the starter portion of the S/G will turn backwards (CCW).
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well I personally would rewire it correctly. then I would take the s/g off and try it with jumper cables and see what s/g I have. then go from there. ether find a new, other one. or get it fixed to work in my application. good luck ps use new wires and pitch the old ones.
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Nate Being a novice here I assume s/g means starter and generator. When you say try it with jumper cable do you mean try starting the tractor or running the generator or something else? Sorry but I guess I need more details being totally lost on this subject. larry
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This is a simple operation IF you know what you're doing. I had a Triumph Spitfire and a Jaguar XKE years ago that were both positive ground and remember finding an article in a magazine on just how to reverse the grounds and it involved removing "a" wire on the voltage regulator and flashing it to reverse polarities. I remember it was quite easy and took me all of 15 minutes to do everything I needed. I'm quite sure it involved changing the battery post positions too. I know I have that article saved "someplace" but I'm sure I'll never find it before you could do a Google search and find pertinent information. I know it's common on most British cars back in the 60's and before to be positive ground. I think "maybe" I had to change the 2 wires on the amp gauge but am not positive of that right now. All I remember for sure is I didn't have to do anything to rewire all the gauges like you'd think and it was very simple to do. If everything is working now (charging correctly) I see no reason to really get involved with changing things around until you have the correct information at hand. If you can't find any info on just how to do this email me directly and I'll see if I can find that article or one that will help on-line, I'm sure it's out there somewhere.
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I just did a quick search and found if you go to Google and type in Generator/Alternator/Dynamo Question and look for a website about Radio Banter you should find a "quick" answer to your question about just how to do this procedure. I'd look for a more detailed explanation on another site if you can find one though. I guess my main reson for changing polaritys on my British cars was to make a negative ground radio work in positive ground car at the time.
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switching the generator over by flashing used to be common. But I think you're still left with a starter motor that turns the wrong way. Whether a starter shop could redo the insides at a reasonable cost I don't know and I've never tried myself. It might be possible. But the more satisfying route would be to buy a generator and regulator off ebay, redo all your questionable wiring and be done with it. That's what I'd do, anyway. -Don
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I just bench ran my spare S/G and plus to minus and vice-versa connection did not change the rotation. It is the regulator that the polarity is determined. Cub Cadet I believe turns the unit 180 deg and that requires a different rotation motor to start it.
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a-c b1: yes your right s/g means starter and generator. I still learning my self like IIRC and IMO?????? I still don't know. had to think on this po previous owner thanks guys. I should have said bench test and told you to un hook the battery then use the jumper cables, to see witch way if there was a difference in the way they run. ground - on the case and pos + on the pole closest to the engine there should be stamped letters in the casing I think there's A & F your books should have all info needed I think there's only 5 or 6 wires on the b-1 any ways remember your working with '62 wiring. time to change it out I could be wrong but the armature winding is what tell it witch way to spin it been a long time sense I put a rebuilt smaller cub s/g on one of my tractors. at the time it was 50-60 $ you could x 2 now. witch way you decide to go if you make a + ground tractor tell the one that your selling it that's what you did I two have found a tractor just like this and I just rewired it and she runs great. + she charges now.
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BLT Yes there is a tag on the G. It is delco reniy 1101980 ser#3m25 The regulator is an ECHLIN. I thought the reniy was a mistake but found this on the net "The Delco Reniy starter motor is similar to the type installed to manual transmission models..." larry NATE IIRC and IMO IMO is in my opinion, the other I don't know, maybe someone can help us both out on that. I guess I will look for the right S/G at the right price and change it when the weather is better. I changed out my TO 30 ferguson to 12 volt positive and it really starts much better but this tractor has been 12 volt all along just not positive ground. larry Thanks to everyone for hanging in there with me, I appreciate you all. larry
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The starter generators basically get flashed for polarity every time you start the tractor, it is only the plain generators that needed flashed if they set for awhile and lost all magnetism in the fields. If you change it back you will not have to worry about the ignition as it does not work on an outside source for operation. You will only have to change to the correct components and switch the leads back around. I know this sounds stupid but the positive runs to ground and not just a black wire, I have seen many cars with a red ground cable and a black positive cable. As far as charging no need to disconnect, that was only required if you where using a 12 volt charger on a 6 volt battery.
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The difference between a CW or CCW starter/generator is the way the field coils are wound and connected internally. A CCW unit can be converted by lengthening the wires and reversing their internal connections. But, then the added wiring is prone to failure due to vibration and possible rubbing of the armature. Been there and done that on my B-1 S/G. A starter/generator shop can order the field coils as either CW or CCW. The coils can also be ordered as a paired assembly (starter and generator field coils) or each coil can be ordered separately. Additionally, I suspect the brushes are mounted at different angles for the CW and CCW units so they are properly seated on the armature commutator.
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I'm in way over my head when I read some of these posts. What is CW and CCW? It is just dawning on me...the generator doesn't also act as the starter does it? I won't alter any of the wrong parts on it to make it work I will replace parts before I do that otherwise I will still have a mickey mouse hookup. What I think I need to find our for sure at this point is as follows: 1. Will my battery charge and stay up as it is rigged now? 2. Where do I find correct parts when I'm ready to change it all? 3. How do I maintain my sanity as I keep finding new problems? larry
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CW = clockwise rotation looking at the pulley end. CCW = counter clockwise rotation looking at the pulley end. The generator has two sets of field coils. One field coil runs the generator as a motor and works as the starter. The other field coil works as a generator to charge the battery. Have you checked the battery voltage with the engine running? If so, does the voltage increase to around 13 to 15 volts? If it does the generator is charging. No voltage increase means it is not charging. Watch the want ads on this site and E-bay. Starter/Generators (S/G's) show up fairly often. Regulators are available from NAPA and other good parts stores. I have an Echlin regulator on my B-1. Just make sure the regulator you get is for a garden tractor with a maximum charge rate of 13 to 15 amps. A car regulator has a 30+ amp charge rate and will burn the S/G up. A decent starter/generator/alternator shop should be able to assist you. It would also help if you had a wiring diagram for your B-1. Study the articles in the posts at: "http://www.simpletractors.com/service/electricselectrical_systems.htm" They should help you understand the tractor electrical system. Persistence is the only way to defeat a difficult problem. Stay with it.
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AC_B-1Novice
Here are 3 pics. THE WRONG REGULATOR


IS THIS THE CORRECT HOOKUP FOR THE BLOWER?


WHAT TYPE AIR CLEANER NEEDS TO BE ON HERE?


Thanks for any help. larry
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I have an A-C parts book and the starter - generator P/N 1101980 is correct for a B-1. The regulator you show might be the correct hi output type that would be the same as the 1119310 P/N I E-mailed you last week. You would have to have a generator rebuilding shop confirm that. I am guessing that the type you would like is Delco - Remy P/N 1118988 which is a square type that attaches to the bracket above the generator. That regulator would also be compatible with the generator you have.
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AC_B-1Novice
Thanks Bob. Now, I'm really confused. If I have the correct S/G and the Regulator is ok but not exactly the right one then why would I have a positive ground on my battery? larry
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bigtenboy65
IIRC that is not the right mount for a blower on a b-1, its the little arm on the other side that moves back and forth when you pull/push the rod, i am working on getting a 700 simplicity running as i just got it at a mud sale, so i guess i can help you and you can help me
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Larry, I said the regulator might be, not 100% positive. That needs to be verified. The B-1 has a fairly simple wiring circuit, so doing a positive ground with that Echlin regulator is possible. Also you should look on the mounting base of the regulator to see if there is any visual giveaways to the make up of the unit. Some units are built with the "12NP" or "12VN" stamped in to determine the polarity.
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