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SmilinSam

transmission oil differences

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SmilinSam
Could someone tell me the difference between Dexron, Type F, and brown hydrostatic oil for tractor use? Seems among different manufacturers theuy call for one or the other for the same basic use.

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BLT
GM held the patent rights on Dexron (ATF) up to Dexron 6. Type F and Mercon is a FoMoCo (ATF) look alike and both are basically interchangeable. I think both are now semi synthetic and can be used forward and backward. Both have a useable temperature range up to 250 deg F. They tend not to have the same lubricating qualities as your brown hydro oil. Brown hydro oil can't go much over 150 deg F but starts harder in the winter. Also unless designed for it, Dexron and Mercon are harder on seals. And C-4 which is basically 10W30 oil is also another hydro oil by some. Can't give you an answer , just how confusing it can get.

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dentwizz
It all has to do with what they determine to be the A) service cycle B) Working temp C) Load D) Cost. There are many subtleties between them that makes one or the other more aptly suited to it's job, even though in a pinch they could work for the same job for a limited duration. It all comes down to what the manufacturer lists and sticking to it.

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SmilinSam
Reason I ask is that I finally found out the loader on my Deere is a Brantly loader model #320. Also found a owners manual for it to download. In its manual it calls for Type F automatic transmission fluid. I, not knowing this, put in WalMart Super tech ATF Dexron/Mercon. On the bottle of oil it specifiocally says dont use in transmissions that specify Type F, Mercon V, or Dexron VI. Wondering if I need to drain the oil from the loader yet againsm00.. and install some type F?

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SmilinSam
If I read the data sheets on type F and Dexron/Mercon, the main difference is that the type F holds up under higher temperatures better.

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427435
Type F and Mercon have different friction modifiers in them-----don't put one into a transmission if the other is called for. As far as in a hydraulic loader----probably interchangeable.

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HubbardRA
The one characteristic that prevents the different types from being interchangeable is their compatibility with different seal materials. Use the wrong fluid, and the seals go away. Be careful.

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SmilinSam
if it eats seals, I'm afraid I'm screwed already. Wrong oil + parts NLA to rebuild. Looks like I'll get my suction device out and suck the oil out of teh resevoir and put in Type F. Probably have to use and drain a couple of time to get most of the Dexron out.

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HubbardRA
I had a Ford Mini-Van and when I got it the power steering whined like crazy. It was supposed to have Type F in the steering. I drained the other fluid and replaced it with Type F. The whining went away. There definitely are differences. Seal Compatibility, Thermal tolerance, antifoaming characteristics, and friction modifiers are different between the various fluids.

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SmilinSam
Well I made two changes this afternoon. 1) I drained the resvoir and the oil filter and refilled both with type F fluid. 2)After obtaining a owners manual for the Brantly loader on this Deere, I also read that there is supposed to be a breather cap on the resovoir , not a solid plug. So, A trip to the local hardware store yielded a 3/4" pipe fitting breather cap like used on farm fuel tanks. That and a 3/4 to 1/2 adaptor. I also packed the hood of the breather behind the brass screen with a piece of foam pre cleaner from an air filter. Dont know whether it was the oil or the breather, but the loader operates like a whole nother loader. Works pretty good now.

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Roy
"Could someone tell me the difference between Dexron, Type F, and brown hydrostatic oil for tractor use? Seems among different manufacturers theuy call for one or the other for the same basic use." Excellent question Sam. As discussed above there are significant differences in ATF types and hydraulic oil. Cannot understand how/why Simplicity and Sundstrand recommend such a wide range of different oils knowing they all have different performance characteristics. One of life's mysteries I guess.

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DeltaBravo
The 7016H manual calls for either Dexron or Type F. I used Dexron when I restored the tractor, and changed to type F at 100 hours. I've mowed once since the change over, but haven't noticed a difference yet. As Mark said the difference is the friction modifiers. I've heard type F is better for trans with "smaller" clutch packs. Compared to what I'm not sure. Maybe Dexron lets the individual clutch discs slip a little for smoother, luxury feel, shift quality in an auto trans. An old hot rodders trick is to use type F instead of Dexron for crisper, you can feel it, bark the tires, type of shifts.

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427435
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaBravo
The 7016H manual calls for either Dexron or Type F. I used Dexron when I restored the tractor, and changed to type F at 100 hours. I've mowed once since the change over, but haven't noticed a difference yet. As Mark said the difference is the friction modifiers. I've heard type F is better for trans with "smaller" clutch packs. Compared to what I'm not sure. Maybe Dexron lets the individual clutch discs slip a little for smoother, luxury feel, shift quality in an auto trans. An old hot rodders trick is to use type F instead of Dexron for crisper, you can feel it, bark the tires, type of shifts.
Where is the clutch pack on a 7016H? I thought it was a hydrostatic transmission with a idler pulley on the belt drive to the hydro unit. I do agree that Type F has a more aggressive friction additive.

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DeltaBravo
Sorry to go auto tech on you. FYI. The Simplicity filter #1650954 for the Sunstrand hydro cross references to an AC PF-13 filter, which is the Casite CF-107 or Purolator L14670 filter. These are the same filter used by Mopar 318 engines. Used the AC filter the first 100 hours, now it has the Casite filter on it.

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Simplicity314
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaBravo
Sorry to go auto tech on you. FYI. The Simplicity filter #1650954 for the Sunstrand hydro cross references to an AC PF-13 filter, which is the Casite CF-107 or Purolator L14670 filter. These are the same filter used by Mopar 318 engines. Used the AC filter the first 100 hours, now it has the Casite filter on it.
In that case that crosses to a NAPA /Wix 1038, which is interchangeable with the 1515 used on ford 300s 302s and maybe some others--filter has the same thread and seal--just higher capacity. If you have the room, you can use the 1515 and hold more fluid. I use the 1515 on my 318.

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Dark
Over the years, there have been a confusing array of different ATF types and specifications. Make sure the replacement fluid meets or exceeds all OEM requirements. Using the wrong type of fluid may cause transmission problems and damage. Type F -- Introduced by Ford in 1967 for their automatics. Also used by Toyota. Type CJ -- Special fluid for Ford C6 transmissions. Similar to Dexron II. Must not be used in automatics that require Type F. Can be replaced with Mercon or Mercon V. Type H -- Another limited Ford spec that differs from both Dexron and Type F. Can be replaced with Mercon or Mercon V. Mercon -- Ford fluid introduced in 1987, very similar to Dexron II. Okay for all earlier Fords except those that require Type F. As of July 1, 2007, the production and licensing of Mercon ATF by Ford ends. Ford says applications that require Mercon ATF can now be serviced with Mercon V. Mercon V -- Replaces Mercon. Introduced in 1997 for Ranger, Explorer V6 and Aerostar, and 1998 & up Windstar, Taurus/Sable and Continental. This is the current ATF for most late model Ford products. Mercon SP -- Latest friction-modified ATF for Ford TorqShift Transmissions only. Do NOT use in transmissions that require Mercon or Mercon V. Dexron -- General Motors original ATF for automatics. Dexron II -- Improved GM formula with better viscosity control and additional oxidation inhibitors. Can be used in place of Dexron. Dexron IIE -- GM fluid for electronic transmissions. Dexron III -- Replaces Dexron IIE and adds improved oxidation and corrosion control in GM electronic automatics. Dexron III (H) -- Improved version of Dexron III released in 2003. Dexron III/Saturn -- A special fluid spec for Saturns. Dexron-VI -- Introduced in 2006 for GM Hydra-Matic 6L80 6-speed rear-wheel-drive transmissions. Dexron VI now replaces Dexron III and II, and can be used in GM or import transmissions that formerly specified Dexron III or II. Chrysler 7176 -- For Chrysler FWD transaxles. Chrysler 7176D (ATF+2) -- Adds improved cold temperature flow and oxidation resistance. Introduced 1997. Chrysler 7176E (ATF+3) -- Adds improved shear stability and uses a higher quality base oil. Required for four-speed automatics (do NOT use Dexron or Mercon as a substitute). Chrysler ATF+4 (ATE) -- Introduced in 1998, ATF+4 is synthetic and replaces the previous ATF+3 fluid. Used primarily for 2000 and 2001 vehicles, it can also be used in earlier Chrysler transmissions (except 1999 and older minivans with 41TE/AE transmission). ATF+3 should continue to be used for 1999 and earlier minivans because of the potential for torque converter shudder during break in. NOTE:Chrysler ATF+4 Must always be used in vehicles that were originally filled with ATF+4. The red dye used in ATF+4 is not permanent. As the fluid ages it may become darker or appear brown in color. ATF+4 also has a unique odor that may change with age. Therefore, do not relay on the color and odor of ATF+4 to determine if the fluid needs to be changed. Follow the OEM recommended service interval. Chrysler ATF+5 for 2002 and newer models. IMPORT APPLICATIONS: BMW LT7114l or LA2634 -- Special formula for BMW transmissions. Genuine Honda ZL ATF -- Special ATF for Honda automatics (except CVT applications). Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II & SP-Ill -- Special formula ATFs for Mitsubishi transmissions. Nissan J-Matic -- Special formula for Nissan transmissions. Toyota Type T, T-III & T-IV -- Special formula ATFs for Toyota and Lexus transmissions.

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b112bob
Does anyone know if genuine Simplicity hydrostatic fluid is brown or red? I bought a used 7117 hydro that was dealer serviced and the fluid is brown and I always wondered if it should be red.

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SmilinSam
quote:
Originally posted by b112bob
Does anyone know if genuine Simplicity hydrostatic fluid is brown or red? I bought a used 7117 hydro that was dealer serviced and the fluid is brown and I always wondered if it should be red.
The new stuff on the shelf is brown, however, I have bought older quarts at auctions that contained red.

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TnBrett

I apologize for opening an old post, but approximately how many quarts of type f transmission fluid should a 7100 series take? I'm specifically asking about the 7117, but just wanted to know from the experts before I try chasing this down.

If this is in the manuals, my trifocals aren't playing nicely today?

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PhanDad

The spec's page from the 1989 7100 series Operators Manual:

image.thumb.png.0732ceec2738c0e2e983e79c7f833693.png

3 Quarts, but in my experience it's almost impossible to put that much into it for a drain/refill.  Maybe it holds 3 quarts when totally empty.  

 

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TnBrett
On 6/13/2020 at 2:23 PM, PhanDad said:

The spec's page from the 1989 7100 series Operators Manual:

image.thumb.png.0732ceec2738c0e2e983e79c7f833693.png

3 Quarts, but in my experience it's almost impossible to put that much into it for a drain/refill.  Maybe it holds 3 quarts when totally empty.  

 

Thanks Bill,

I just ordered a case of "Red" Valvoline Type F (ATF) Automatic Transmission Fluid off the internet so will that work? I believe one of my tractors the fluid is brown and the other one is so low I won't know until I pull the filter and check. I don't remember this much drama with my B10, but that was 30 years ago when most things were much simpler and I was much younger:S

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PhanDad

I've been sticking with the Simplicity Multipurpose Oil since that's what's been in my tractors.  

Although I think any of the fluids would work OK, I am a believer in not mixing them.  So, IMO, to do a complete change to a different type of fluid would take several drain/fill cycles since you can't get all the fluid out with a single change.  

And things were simpler in FDT days; both the BGB and tranny took 80/90 weight gear oil.  Only complication was if you have a hydraulic lift on the tractor.  Then you needed a second fluid (not counting engine oil).  

 

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Alltractoredup

I was happy to see this post on trans oils.  I recently purchased two Sovereigns with Power Steering, a first for me to have PS on a sovereign and now have two.  Both tractors had slight hydraulic leaks and both fluids were the brown oil.  These tractors are from completely different dealers or people.  These two Simplicity tractors were the first I have ever come across that had the brown oil.  ALL the other Allis and Simplicity tractors I have had, and I have had about 40-45 over my life, have had red fluid in the hydro.  

When I saw the brown oil I thought the previous owner had messed up on his oil change.  Luckily I was wrong.

I learned something new, which is always welcome in my world.

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