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78kitty

5216 Won't start

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78kitty
We mowed with the 5216H for over an hour yesterday & it ran great. My brother went to back it out of the garage today and it fired briefly then wouldn't start. I had a ignition armature I bought for it b/c it wouldn't restart when hot after it got heat-soaked, so we put that on hoping the armature just finally died. No luck, still no fire at the plugs. Then we proceeded to test the safety switches and even tore down the whole steering wheel & dash to check the ignition switch. I really don't know what to test next. It has the original Brigg's 16HP vertical shaft twin. Oh and the plugs are new as well. Any ideas!?

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78kitty
I'm still wondering what I should check next. It's so weird that it turns over fine, you can smell the gas going to carburetor, but there is absolutely no fire at the plugs! wah

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Brettw
Safety switches generally won't even let it turn over, so I doubt it's safety switches. If there is a coil / condenser all it would take is a bad wire to either and it would not fire.

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brozak
Try getting spark with the small kill wire removed from the ignition coil. All the wire does is grounds out the coil to stop the spark, NO ground = ALL spark. REMOVE both spark plugs and check both of them If you still don't have spark, you have 2 bad coils. If you do have spark, start tracing the wire from the coil and check for anyplace it might be pinched and grounding itself out. The insulator connection on the engine sheet metal is one place I've seen problems in the past. I bought a NEW coil last year and it was bad out of the box. This coil is a simple design but not many of them last very long. The one I'm running on my 6118 has the heat problem, after about 10 minutes, it starts to miss about every 20th. rotation, I just keep it at 1/2 throttle or better. Good luck

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78kitty
Where is the ignition coil at? The only thing I see on this motor is the "ignition armature" that mounts right next to the flywheel. It has the 2 sparkplug wires coming out of it and 2 smaller 18 gauge or so wires where 1 goes on the armature to engine mounting bolt and the other to a spade connector on the front of the engine.

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Brettw
"Try getting spark with the small kill wire removed from the ignition coil. All the wire does is grounds out the coil to stop the spark, NO ground = ALL spark. REMOVE both spark plugs and check both of them If you still don't have spark, you have 2 bad coils. If you do have spark, start tracing the wire from the coil and check for anyplace it might be pinched and grounding itself out. The insulator connection on the engine sheet metal is one place I've seen problems in the past. I bought a NEW coil last year and it was bad out of the box. This coil is a simple design but not many of them last very long. The one I'm running on my 6118 has the heat problem, after about 10 minutes, it starts to miss about every 20th. rotation, I just keep it at 1/2 throttle or better." This assumes you have power TO the coil. That would need to be checked first.

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78kitty
We tried disconnecting the wire that went to the armature and still nothing. If it turns over and still no spark what else could it be unless the new armature (coil) is bad? There are 2 wires coming out of the coil. One grounds to 1 of the mouting screws and the other goes to a connection on the front of the engine. Can anyone explain how this system works. i.e. what does each of the wires on the armature do and does the magnet in the flywheel actually energize the coil or just tell it when to fire?

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BLT
quote:
Originally posted by 78kitty
It's around a 1985 or 1986, and the date code on the motor indicates it was made in mid August 1985.
That should rule out point - condenser ignition as electronics were in about 1983. Earlier quote= "There are 2 wires coming out of the coil. One grounds to 1 of the mouting screws front and the other goes to a connection on the of the engine. Can anyone explain how this system works. i.e. what does each of the wires on the armature do and does the magnet in the flywheel actually energize the coil or just tell it when to fire? Follow the wire that goes to front of engine and see where it connects. Also a picture is worth a thousand words if you can do it.

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78kitty
We're going to work on it again tonight, so we'll check out the wiring. Another thing I want to check is the ignition armature / coil assembly to rule out it being bad out of the box. Does anyone know if there's a way to bench test the armature?

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sunrunner
The B&S L-head manuals says: If spark does not occur look for: Improperly operating interlock system Sheared flywheel key(breaker points only) Incorrect breaker point gap(when so equipped) Dirty or burned out breaker points(when so equipped) Shorted ground wire(when so equipped) Shorted stop switch(when so equipped) Incorrect armature gap Armature failure Worn cam bearing and/or camshaft(breaker points only) If you have a MAGNETRON ignition system requires a minimum 350 RPM to produce spark Hope this help and not add any confusion.....Chris

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78kitty
Thanks Chris. Being a 1985, this is a Magnetron ignition (no points & condenser). Also, it's a opposed-twin and not an L-head, so I'm not sure if that will change what we're looking for. We took a few pics today, but it says they're too large too upload here so I'll have to have some help down-sizing them or something so I can post them. They currently about 125k or 0.1 Megabyte. I'll have to see how small they need to be for upload. Update- Got the pics working! }:) 1st pic- General shot of the new armature/coil and wiring. There are two "thin" wires (one shielded one not) and the two sparkplug wires. 2nd pic- Shot from the front and you can see where one of the thin wires from the armature goes to that isolator nut/bolt & the wire that plugs into the other side of the isolator goes back to the igntion switch (the one running over the intake manifold tube). 3rd pic- You can see in this pic the other thin wire that comes out of the armature/coil. I'm not exactly sure where that wire is supposed to go, but I assume it's supposed to ground underneath the armature. I can't say for sure b/c the wiring on the armature/coil that was on previously had this wire already screwed to one of the holes in the armature/coil. So mounting it underneath the screw and it grounding on the head should do the same thing anyway. We've tried starting it with each of the thin wires plugged in, unplugged, one plugged in with one not and still NO spark!!!






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sunrunner
Google "picresizer) or this link[url]http://bluefive.pair.com/pixresizer.htm[/url] Real easy to use - Chris, more... What is the model # of the engine - cause the 5200 and the 6200(which I'm familiar with, should be the same)

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sunrunner
Yes that # is an L-head opposed twin - I will look more at the manual when I get home.....Chris edit - make sure the flywheel magnets are not too rusty where they meet the armature - ^ edit again - Make sure the battery spins that thing(cause if one of my batteries is low enough not to get the RPM's up on start - It will crank, but no start - and did you set the armature gap(don't remember if you have to??) - Just asking...will know more from the manual...Chris

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Dark




Also make sure the gap between the flywheel and the coil is at least a matchbook cover (if you dont have a feeler guage) I run most of my twins @ 15 gap

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sunrunner
Wire should go here - One is a armature ground and the other is a module ground


and I think you have it on backwards - Spark plug wires coming out of the module should be facing the back of the engine - More coming... Gap should be .008"-.012" or .20mm-.30mm Short spark plug wire should go to same side cylinder as module - Chris

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78kitty
Oh OK thanks Chris I thought L-heads were the old single cylinder engeines. Yeah the magnets have been super cleaned by us using emerycloth and Ultra-fine sandpaper. I also gapped the armature by putting a postcard b/t it and the flywheel so that should be OK. I'm wondering if this armature isn't bad right out of the box & how about those wires? So is that wire going to the isolator that shouldn't be grounded a open circuit then when you turn the ignition off it's then grounded?

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78kitty
WOW, now we're getting somewhere! What a difference the pics make! I thought about the armature being on backwards while working on it last night and noticed on the old part how the plug wires seemed to go the opposite way, but I don't think the wires on the new unit are long enough. If we're pretty sure it should go the other way we'll try to flip the armature the other way. From the picture in the manual and it saying to "note the direction of the plug wires" it may need to get turned around and the plug wires re-run so they'll fit. Oh, also on it being on backwards- I noticed last night that if I would flip it over then those "rivet / nail" type things will have the heads facing down toward the block whereas they were facing up (like they are now) on the one we took off.

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sunrunner


This is where it shows the wire should be - sorry 'bout the pic - says GROUND WIRE on the right More: Routing Ignition Wires The ignition armature is mounted on No.1 cylinder.The short spark plug wire lead goes through opening between #1 breather and back plate,under intake manifold and around to #1 spark plug. Magnetron ground wire follows same opening to stop switch terminal. Long spark plug lead is for #2 cylinder. Route through same opening in back plate,and under intake manifold to #2 spark plug....:p

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sunrunner
Yup - Those are rivets and the manual looks to show the ends/pins facing the engine or down - The heads of the rivets are to be on top. So the ground wire on it is facing down... Chris

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78kitty
Excellent!!! Thanks Chris. Hopefully I'll re-hook up these wires & finally get her going again! Does the pic in figure 6 say something about using a 5/16" punch on it?

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