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mroman59

7117 Simplicty - Hydrostatic line problem

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mroman59
I am in the process of rebuilding my BGB and mounting back into my tractor. I disconnected the hydrostatic lines on top so that I could separate the front and rear ends of the tractor. When putting it back together a hydrostatic elbow fitting became stripped and I think I may need to replace it. I can not thread the hydrostatic line back on and I have tried many times. My parts manual does not even show the part in it. It is located on the pump just above the Charge pump housing on the left side of the tractor. I appears you can not remove it unless you remove the housing first. As it spins it hits the housing. Why did they design it like that, geez! Anyways, can some one tell me if I will be creating any problems if I remove the charge pump housing? According to my diagram there may be some seal, etc. behind it. After removing the two bolts will it come off easy? Will I lose fluid? Will I need to replace and seals, gaskets, etc just for taking it off? Is the fitting I need a standard fitting I can get anywhere or do I have to go to a Simplicity dealer for it? Any tips or tricks is appreciated. Thanks, MR

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mroman59
Thanks for the info. It will probably save me a few bucks, rather than going to a Simplicity dealer. Does anyone know how to get it off, i.e. removing the Charge pump housing seems to be required. Will I run into any problems taking that off?

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Vassal
I see two options here: 1) Cut the 90 degree leg off of the stripped fitting then remove the fitting from case. Replace with a straight fitting (Parker, Aeroquip etc) then if hose is not long enough, have a new 90 degree end installed on the hose or replace the ho$e. 2) R&R the Charge Pump Housing (CPH)- Do your best to clean/de-burr the protruding pump shaft PRIOR to removal of CPH so you don't damage the seal. Then thoroughly clean the charge pump housing and surrounding areas to reduce internal contamination. Be sure to make reference marks on both the case and the CPH so you can reinstall the housing in the original orientation. Remove CPH bolts and carefully remove housing. >>Now replace the damaged hose fitting<< If the fitting now hits the pump itself (beneath the removed CPH), you will have to remove the pump by driving out the pump drive pin. This pin should not be re-used per the manual. Upon reassembly, torque the CPH bolts to 50-55 ft-lbs (again from the manual). With the CPH removed, it would be wise to closely inspect the pump, housing and bearing for any signs of wear/scoring etc.

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PhanDad
I just looked closely at the 90 deg connections on my 75th with hydro lift. The fitting does NOT appear to be a standard 90 deg fitting. The fitting looks like it's a ferrule type male (Swagelok) on one connection that allows rotation and the standard hydraulic female on the other connection. I'm betting there's a straight "ferrule" type female connector screwed into the charge pump housing. If I'm correct, you don't have to remove the charge pump.

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mroman59
Well guys I went and purchased the fitting on my 7117 from a local shop and it is a standard fitting 90 degree elbow. Cost, $3.85. I am not sure why the 75th does not have 90 deg. fittings, I would assume think that they should be the same. I decided to remove the charge pump housing in order to replace the fitting. When I removed the housing the drive pin that holds the gear fell out onto the floor. I dont know if that pin should have that much play in order for it to do that. If the manual says not to reuse the pin, I will ask the Simplicity dealer about it and hope they have it in stock. The housing gears and such look like they are in good shape. Maybe I will take them into Simplicity and have them take a look since I dont have the technical know how to tell the difference.

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PhanDad
Interesting that your tractor has standard 90 deg fittings. I looked at the parts lists for my 7117 Sovereign (mfg#1690571) and GTH-L (mfg#1691957) and they both list a "Elbow, Adjustable, 37 deg" for the hydraulic lift fitting on the charge pump housing (same as the 75th). Part #922523 (now part #2822523), $6.99 at Jack's. Bet your hydraulic lift is a custom install. Does the tubing have the connectors in both lines near the BGB? These would be the ones you disconnect when splitting the tractor:


And a closeup of the fittings in question:


Since you have everything apart, it might be worth installing the special fittings for future convenience.

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mroman59
Bill, my fittings look different than what you have. I am not sure if some one replaced those with standard at a later date, but both of the fittings that you see in the photo on mine are the same. Not sure about being a custom install. The tubing does have the connectors in both lines near the BGB as your diagram shows. I assume your fittings can be removed without removing the pump charge housing? Before I put back together I may have considered buying those fittings, however removing the housing was no big deal. I like your new tires in the photo, what type are they? They dont look like Simplicity Turf tires. How they working compared to the original Simplicity design?

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Vassal
Just to clarify; Not sure why, but I assumed you were dealing with a retrofit that used standard hyd hose and 45degree fittings, not hard line (tubing), my apologies for that.
quote:
Originally posted by PhanDad
Interesting that your tractor has standard 90 deg fittings. I looked at the parts lists for my 7117 Sovereign (mfg#1690571) and GTH-L (mfg#1691957) and they both list a "Elbow, Adjustable, 37 deg" for the hydraulic lift fitting on the charge pump housing (same as the 75th). Part #922523 (now part #2822523), $6.99 at Jack's. Bet your hydraulic lift is a custom install.......
Just to confuse; In the quote above, please note that the description of the fitting states "37 deg" which indicates to me the OEM hardline fittings are AN (Army/Navy) style not the ho-hum standard 45 degree hyd stuff. That does make a difference if you're replacing fittings and keeping the original hardline as shown in the photos. Your Simp dealer should be able to get you through this without a problem though... The info I posted about the charge pump R&R and the pump pin came from an electronic copy of the Simplicity Sundstrand Series 15 Repair Manual. I can no longer find the link to it's online location, but I will email a copy if you need it. The fact that the pump pin fell out would confirm that it is not only a one-time-use item, but perhaps something is goofy, methinks worth a closer look.

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PhanDad
Vassel, I'm curious (I know little about hydraulic fittings). Do you think the entire hydraulic setup is AN? Or is the 90 deg fitting an AN type on the end connected to the charge pump case and a std fitting for the rest? Can you tell by looking at the fittings from outside (like the disconnect provided just behind the BGB? And the parts manual also has this note for assembly: "To install swivel fittings, first lubricate O-ring seal with light oil. Then turn swivel nut until O-ring is sealed. Turn fitting by hand to align with tube nut." Based on the above, it sounds like the tubing to charge pump housing is provided by an o-ring rather than compression. Is this correct? Is that how AN fittings work (o-ring seals)? Only thing I know for sure (since I had one tubing line off between the charge pump fitting and BGB fittings) is those connections didn't have o-rings, they're compression type fittings.

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Vassal
I don't know much about hydraulic fittings either! As a matter of fact, the fittings on your trans case in your pics are rather strange to me.They do look like they would be a swivel type with o-ring though. The reason I mentioned the AN thing is the difference in the seat flare angle, 37 for AN vs 45 for SAE. This makes flare fittings incompatible. However, a system could use a combination of fitting styles as long as the male/female seats are matched. In other words you COULD have 45 deg flare fittings at the BGB and AN fittings elsewhere. Hope that makes senseXX(

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Vassal
One other thing: You mentioned 'compression fittings'. There are different types used on tubing but I think the ones you are referring to aren't actual compression fittings. They do use a 'ferrule' or 'olive' on the tubing (under the tube nut), but the seal is actually the job of the tubing FLARE. When you tighten the tube nut, it pushes on the olive which in turn, pushes on the backside of the flared tubing end which performs the seal. A true 'compression fitting' (in MY world) is used to connect tubes or tubes to fittings without using flares on the ends of the tubing, instead, the flare is on the ferrule. It is this flare, combined with a slight ferrule collapse and resulting 'crush' on the tubing (once tightened) that creates the seal. This 'crush' is what makes the ferrule and the crushed section of tubing from being re-used (by professional - but not me^). EDIT - these compression fitting ARE NOT for high pressure - NEVER EVER use them on automotive brake lines!! Either learn to PROPERLY double flare tubing or hire a professional (not me^)
[img]http://www.scary-terry.com/ggshooter/comp_fittings.jpg[/img]
Now that's not too confusingXX(:o)

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mroman59
I agree with you on the compression fittings as opposed to the flare fitting. His hydraulic fittings, swivel type elbows look like they are 90 degree fitting to me. They are nice and it would have been nice to have on mine at the time. That swivel action comes in handing when trying to thread on the female end. Gives enough play to prevent stripping. In addition you can take them off without taking off the pump charge housing. He said he bought them at Jack's, therefore it seems that they are not a simplicty dealer item. If I knew, I would have asked about them while I was in the local hydraulic parts dealer. After practically rebuilding my BGB, I hope I dont have to break those lines for another 20 years, in which case I wont be doing that, LOL.

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