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hotrodtractor

HELP slow hydro sovereign

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hotrodtractor
I had thought my hydro lift was slow on my 2000 beast. My power steering cylinder is choppy, and I can see the lift action choppy (hesitates, goes hesitates goes). Now that I got two running tractors with commands to compare side by side, I have confirmed one is 5 times slower. I have some issue! Any ideas both have new fluid and filter. The weird thing is choppy is worst when cold and gets a little better when warm. The drive seems fine and machine makes speed and is just as fast as the other, but a little less responsive (meaning from a start the non choppy one is a bit quicker). Only difference between two tractors is pwr steering on choppy and use. The choppy one has been used a bit the other is pretty much new. Could my hydro pump be weak? Or could the power steering be eating up to much of my flow (gpm) or psi. As both hydro cylinders do similar choppy action on the one machine I doubt they are both bad. I have also swapped the charge pump (little booster thing) not the whole hydro pump from another machine and not much changed. Any ideas? HELP

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Burntime
I am by no mean an expert but I remember the non hyrdo lift is set at 250psi and the hydro lift is set at 850??? I talked to a guy and he claimed to shim it to get just a little more and the tractor speed remained the same but the power steering was not choppy. Not sure if fact or fiction but it makes sense... I know there is info on the shims somewhere on the site...

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hotrodtractor
Thanks Mike I did some reading one the shims and found part # SHIM PACK 9510447 still avail at Jacks. I guess a starting place would be that I should see what it has for PSI now. I know something has changed since that day I worked it hard with the bucket. Steering is much worse and lift is noticabley choppy. Not sure if the shim/spring can become weak or how to check a bad pump. Anybody know how to check the pressure, what gauge and where to tap in? When a pump fails does it just lack PSI or GPM?

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RayS




You say they both have new fluid and filters. Did you lift the relief valve E in the picture when filling with new oil? Just curious. If not there could be trapped air in system.


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hotrodtractor
Yes in fact to get fluid in there at a reasonable speed I had to hold the relief valve up as I added fluid. Biggie Rat also thought air in the system. If I recall I thought the system will self purge any air in the system. I do know when I take the cap off the fill tube fluid will spew out, but Al Eden said that is normal. However that seems odd because it's not like I was able to overfill it, and something is causeing the extra volume (air). Advice how to bleed the system, I even went so far as to try to bleed the system while running turning steering wheel and cracking fitting on cylinder untill fluid ran out (like bleeding brakes on car) but that did not seem to help.

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hotrodtractor
I tried the fluid change instructions again and got better results and step 8 worked and no over flow. Ran machine a bit less choppy but was also warm after 5 min run. I counted and the lift takes excactly twice as long to fully lift no load than the other machine. Choppy lifts in 4 seconds the other 2 seconds. Counting one one thousand two... I called Al Eden and talked to his machinic Todd. Todd was great and seemed to think I might have a issue with the assembly that the lift arm connects. He said a ball valve or something may be hanging up, and to remove the assy and clean it up. He said a true test would be the gauge test and my service manual speaks to that. Anybody know where to get one of these gauges?

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hotrodtractor
Thanks Ray. Looks like you agree that checking the pressure should be step #1. Now to get that guage and snubber... Anybody know if this is a available as kit/package. Todd said they did not even have one! I am willing to buy one just need to know what to buy. Advice?

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hotrodtractor
FYI use Dextron VI as it's about the best thing you can buy I use it as fill for all my cars/trucks. And many here support using dex/merc fluid. The drive/hydro is flawless works great, just a lift/pwr steering issue. I would think if there were issues with transport valves, belt tightness, clutch pedal that those would also cause drive issues. I am just trying to root cause the issue to a component so I can replace. FYI I have a few of these same machine so I could swap parts very easy... see where problem follows (troubleshoot) just not sure what to swap.

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hotrodtractor
I am really tempted just to sell the beast machine many people would be happy with a 4 sec lift. I would then just keep the near perfect 96 I just bought after swaping the pwr steering and command of course. That's the issue that steering swap would be a entire day project...grrrr, engine couple hrs. And I like having a last model soveriegn too bad that gray paint is so crappy (flaky).

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hotrodtractor
But both lift and pwr steering cylinder exibit similar issues... doubt both would be bad. I was thinking swaping the hydro control valve (block thing lift arm and hoses connect to)

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hotrodtractor
thanks for all help so far and files. Note I have the full factory serivce manual so I should not need any more files. Those pdf's are sweet to have though! thanks Ray for the info

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hotrodtractor
Ok I have not got the psi checked but did try a few things and test more. Here's a really weird yet interesting symptom. When run at full throttle the lift takes about 4 seconds is choppy and pwr steering choppy. If I back down to 1/2 thottle the pwr steeing in smooth as silk and liuft takes about 3 seconds up but a lot longer back down (no load just watching lift arm). So I was like ok maybe the hydro belt is slipping at high speeds so I put a new one on. No significant improvement at full throttle. So then I decided to swap the pressure side fitting on pump to a larger diameter one (off another machine), no help. I will try to also upgrade to larger on return side of pump as those fittings have some really small internal hole diameters. What do you guys think about the 1/2 vs full throttle issue.... it really is like night and day??? Thoughts I had: pump pulley worn

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Ronald Hribar
is this the unit you added power steering to? if so did you have to increase pressure on Hydro? Did the shims come with kit? can you easily disconnect PS to test system?

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hotrodtractor
great question!! No the "beast" I purchased with pwr steering. My 75th is the one I added it to. The beast I predict had pwr steering added at dealer not mfr. The reason I think that is that the install had a minor flaw: the T splitter fitting had the wrong line on the T vs straight... if you see the install instructions you can see what I mean. Really I am sure it makes little difference, yet guys at the factory probably would have got this small detail righ, unless it was friday at 4:30. The previous owner did gripe about it (pwr steering) being slow and subpar. The beast did not run when I bought it, had a blown triad. I would not be suprized if the dealer had NOT installed the shim kit!! Here's why: no where in the pwr steering instructions does it speak to shims. I did not shim the 75th but have not had it running yet (next week) so not sure if the same issue. I will post about it when she's got the command in next week or so.

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acfarmer
To trouble shoot start at the beginning of the system where it comes out of the hydro to check flow,also a pressure gauge would help but it sounds like a flow problem not a pressure problem.Things to look for are a hose that has disengrated enternally,a valve that has a messed up 'O' Ring or broken spring anything mechanical etc.Also since it effects both the PS and lift the problem has to be ahead of where they split.Sounds like a minor problem to fix but those can be the hardest to find out what they are.

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hotrodtractor
ok got pump shimmed to 700 psi only had 480ish still no improvement actually worse. Tried bypassing power steering box not help. Last tried swapping out a known good control valve and noticed small improvement. May just end up taking steering off and swapping entire tractors. Only issue left is that at full throttle lift and steering get choppy. At 1/2 everything is great

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Ronald Hribar
now that you have it shimmed, does pressure vary at WOT? move you lift > I am wondering if you have pickup problems . I would not be against changeing entire tractor, Part tractors are not thae expensive. And you should be able to build a True Monster Tracdtor

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