Jump to content

Unofficial Home of Old Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden Tractors

Sign in to follow this  
larry8200

Ethenol'd Flo-Jet

Recommended Posts

larry8200
I bought this carb new 7 years ago for my 3416H hoping that I would get over 25 years of trouble free service like the original, but along came ethenol. Last week my newly rebuilt engine started running rough, and then fuel started dripping from the carb. Dis-assembling the carb revealed moderate to heavy corrosion EVERYWHERE, worse than the pictures look. Well an hour of careful work cleaned it up and a kit put it back in business, and it's great now inside and out. I've recently seen a new version of STABIL and some other additives that work on E10 fuel. I guess it's time to get serious about treating ALL fuel and/or planning on rebuilding all carbs on a regular basis. All gas here has been 10% ethenol for 5+ years now, I cant recall ever hearing about the switch or potential problems from the oil company's or anyone else. Just one day all the pumps had little stickers saying "contains 10% ethenol" and it was a done deal.










Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PhanDad
You can still get ethanol free gas at some locations. See the list at: http://pure-gas.org/ I believe I found this site from someone here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
larry8200
quote:
Originally posted by PhanDad
You can still get ethanol free gas at some locations. See the list at: http://pure-gas.org/ I believe I found this site from someone here.
Thanks! Usefull resource. Unfortunatly only one (1) station in New Hampshire... 120 miles from here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timflury
Are you sure it's not Methanol, aka wood alcohol??? I've heard that in the early days of E10, they were blending wood alcohol into the fuels due to the nationwide demand. More seriously, I would send those pics to the guys at Briggs and dig deep (don't accept the first answer you get) and see if there were any other reports of a problem related to yours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PGL
Here it looks like at least some of the petroleum companies produce hi-octane gasoline then add some alcohol to make it mid grade and then more to make it "regular". I am now using the higher grade to avoid the alcohol in my tractors and boat. I hope the higher cost avoids the higher maintenance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
427435
quote:
Originally posted by PGL
Here it looks like at least some of the petroleum companies produce hi-octane gasoline then add some alcohol to make it mid grade and then more to make it "regular". I am now using the higher grade to avoid the alcohol in my tractors and boat. I hope the higher cost avoids the higher maintenance.
Actually it's the reverse of that. Ethanol has a much higher octane so they can produce lower quality gas and bring up the octane by adding ethanol to it. We've had E10 gas here in Minnesota for 12+ years and my old stuff is still running fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dentwizz
One issue I have seen on the Ethanol topic is moisture. It attracts at a higher rate than standard, so stabilizer is a good thing for a L/G application unless you fill regularly or store in controlled environment. Sealing the tank from the carb (I.E fuel shut off valve) and running it dry can help that a bit due to less left behind. Better for evaporative emissions anyhow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Al
Hi, Your problem is a common one. We see it all of the time. We are constantly telling our customers to avoid the alcohol. Being from a corn growing state and a state that is the largest ethanol producer, it is hard. The state has talked about mandatory "gasohol", but never got the law passed. It is a serious problem and now they are going to 15% in Minnesota. Kohler announced an E85 flex fuel engine at Louisville Expo 3 wks ago. E85 cars need stainless components. Building a pipeline for ethanol is being discussed, but the corrosive effect on steel in one of the major problems. Alcohol has about 10% less thermal energy than gasoline, it is effective in reducing detonation {ping for you old guys)but milage in a car is reduced. It is cleaner burning, and is a renewable source of energy. My brothers Kia, gets enough better mileage on regular than gasohol that it is cheaper to pay the dime a gallon more for regular gas. In Iowa the state subsidizes gasohol with a 10 cent a gallon gas tax reduction to promote it. Thus 89 octane gasohol is 10 cents a gallon cheaper than 87 octane regular gas. To use gasohol effectively one needs closed loop fuel injection, or needs to readjust the carb to adjust for the energy loss. Fixed jet carbs have a problem We have been shown carb bodies with the plating and the casting eaten away from gasohol. When you remove the plated steel float bowls from newer carbs and the plating is gone from the inside and the bowl is nearly rusted through thank alcohol. In some states, with selector gas pumps, if the last customer used E85 (85% alcohol) and you pull up for a gallon of premium pure gas a surprise may await you. You may get a hose full of E85 mixed with your premium gas. Oh what progress and politics can bestow upon us. Al Eden

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xenon172
Al: I agree with everything you have to say and I would just like to add that with a food crisis unfolding world wide maybe it's about time we got rid of ethanol in our gas and feed people with the corn. You can't put it in aviation fuel so that should tell you something. I guess the stock to watch is somebody that makes carburetor kits. Don't forget that the Fed also subsidizes it which if it was good they wouldn't have too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Architectdave
Couple of thoughts, Ive seen carbs over the years even before ethanol that looked like that. Not sure if its the addative or just the results of carb gone dry. That said we have a 2007 Fourwinns bowrider that we had an issue with. The ethanol in the gas caused the fuel pickup to corrode - it was the only steel part of the system. I replaced the pickup and started using the blue startron stabilizer and enzyme treatment. I have not had a problem since.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RUMBLEFISH
When ethanol hit NY,NJ and east coast it created lots of problems with the outboards and inboards. Some Betram 28 to 31 foot boats used custom built fiverglass tanks at about 200 gals. each. Well the ethanol broke down the resins in the glass and ruined the engines. They looked like someone filled the internals on the engines with epoxy. All that ethanol scrubs fuel tanks clean puts it back into suspension and runs it thru the motors. In the marine industry we all run 10 micron filters due to this. But yea when it first hit fuel lines, carbs. tanks, o-rings and engines really suffered. My one buddy popped a 250 merc optimax that had less then 140 hours and it was not covered due to it being fuel related. Merc told him to sue the marina well needless to say he hasn't gotten paid yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DMedal
Not meaning to be picky but it isn't the ethanol itself that is the problem. E10 doesn't itself attack zinc/aluminum alloys. BUT Ethanol is very hygroscopic (it absorbs water). Water in the mix makes E10 more corrosive than pure water, or pure alcohol. A self-venting fuel can (or tank) will absorb water out of the air in damp weather. So a good question: how do you keep the stuff dry? For obvious reasons I don't keep my fuel stash in the shop, it is out in the shed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RUMBLEFISH
quote:
Originally posted by DMedal
Not meaning to be picky but it isn't the ethanol itself that is the problem. E10 doesn't itself attack zinc/aluminum alloys. BUT Ethanol is very hygroscopic (it absorbs water). Water in the mix makes E10 more corrosive than pure water, or pure alcohol. A self-venting fuel can (or tank) will absorb water out of the air in damp weather. So a good question: how do you keep the stuff dry? For obvious reasons I don't keep my fuel stash in the shop, it is out in the shed.
Good point on storage. And to think people still buy drygas in those little containers during the winter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PGL
"Actually it's the reverse of that. Ethanol has a much higher octane so they can produce lower quality gas and bring up the octane by adding ethanol to it." Well, I may be wrong as to how they accomplish their grades, but the required labeling on the pumps show there is about 5% alcohol in the mid-range fuel and 10% in the regular, but none in the premium (at least at some stations) so I use the non-alcohol type, as does the marina I use at the cottage. Some boaters have been bringing up regular gas in containers to avoid the higher cost fuel at the marina - the owner has been getting even more $$$ from their repairs though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GrincheyOne
This past year I had to pull my re-built carb on the 4212. I always use regular grade in my equipment. When I removed the bowl, there were crystals in there, that resembled the salt in the bottom of a pretzel bag. The local B&S tech said that was the gasoline crystalizing. Here are some shots. The crystals from the bowl...


Inside of carb...


Carb after some PB=Weld patching...


I even gave some thought to popping that plate, cleaning and epoxy coating the whole cavity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sovereign72
Seafoam in the fuel is the best thing I have found and if you are inclined, go to Flatlanderracing .com they used to cary alcohol fuel conditioners for racers who used Methanol. My brother and I raced stock cars for twelve years and a few classes we used methanol and I can tell you it is horrible on engine components. I have see more than one guy ruin a $1500 holley carb by not draining the fuel after every race. I have saved a few expensive holleys with that white corosionby cleaning it with a 50% dilution of battery acid and water. Heres what you do.mix up enough to immerse the carb completely minus all plastic or rubber parts the brass is ok though, let it soak for one minute and remove. have another container with the same amount of bakingsoda and water then imerse it in that to neutralize the acid. repeat this pricess untill all the corrosion is gone. whear glove goggles and smock because the baking soda will bubble alot. multiple dips may require you to make fresh baking soda mixture. after you are done rinse the carb well blow it dry and coat it inside and out in wd40. check your needle seat for pitting i think this and float setting is the #1 reason so many guys have leaky carbs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MrSteele
I have said before that I run the highest test I can find in all my toys, 2 and 4-cycle. I also check the pump when I buy that gas to be certain that it does not contain alcohol. If it does, I load up and go to another station. There are a couple of local stations here with unbranded gas that have the gas I buy, and I have never had a problem. The commercial lawn services that I repair for all burn high test from the same stations I normally buy from. I do few repairs to fuel systems. After a bit of checking, by the time you buy additives for regular gas, you can likely still come out cheaper buying 93 octane. One thing I have found in the last few years is that when I have my arm twisted tight enough to work on a string trimmer or blower, the trash on the carb inlet screen always is the same white crystals caused by using regular gas in the mixtures. I recommend to all customers to use non-alcohol, 93 octane for the fuel mix. I rarely see the same toy with the same problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jmhusby
Am fortunate here as BP and Kwik-Trip (don't use KT) have premium without ethanol so I use that in all the tractors. Cost more but eliminates much upkeep.XX(XX(XX(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
427435
I just don't understand all these problems being blamed on E10. My carbureted engines include a McCulloch chain saw from the 60's; a B10; an AC 917; a Simplicity 17 GTH-L; a 72" Scag mower; a 1977 IH Scout; a 1977 Mercruiser I/O; a 1967 Vette with 3 carbs; and a Honda power pressure washer. All of these units may sit for months without running and we've had E10 here in Minnesota for 12+ years. The only carb or fuel problem I've had in the last 30 years was with a gunked up carb in the Mercruiser---------but that was 30 years ago and before E10!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
robob
I agree here in south east Wis we had had 10% for maybe even longer i havent had a problem with carbs at all. Two tractors lawn mower string trimmers and generator that is run once every couple of months oops forgot a chipper shedder that sits for six months.the only problem i've had with a carb is a tucumseh on a snow blower and i don't think it has to do with fuel.( sealed inecesible ball check)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Burntime
I used to fill 3 5 gallon tanks and use it up. Now I only fill 2. I think storing it on concrete may speed the water absorbtion with the cold as well. I have had the new stuff go sour in a month and had to add seafoam. Now I usually add seafoam right away...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×