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rfsmith1952

Starter Generator wiring

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rfsmith1952
I've been working on the charging system on the T-10, because it doesn't charge. I've tested the generator and it puts out about 30v when disconnected from the regulator, but there is no voltage increase when all is connected. Leads me to believe its the regulator, except for this one wire. Can't figure out what that white wire is for. Any ideas? And, is there a way to test the regulator? It's a Delco Remy 1119 300E. Thanks Bob


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HubbardRA
Read this post. It may help. http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/portal_External.asp?LinkID=224&LinkName=S/G%20regulator%20check%20and%20fix&CatID=30&CatTitle=Electrical&URL=http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=96749 In the following post the second and third wiring diagrams show how the regulator should be wired. http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=43560&SearchTerms=wiring,diagram

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midnightpumpkin
Bob, Me thinks the white wire does not belong there at all. Here is a simple wiring diagram of what you should have.


The F terminal on the regulator goes to the Field terminal on the SG. There should only be one wire on the SG field terminal. Tha Armature terminal on the SG should have the heavy cable going to the solenoid and a smaller wire going to the center terminal on the regulator. I wonder of one of the extra wires on the field terminal is supposed to be on the armature? You may find that if it is wired per the diagram it will charge properly. There is a good article on how the SG works in the articles section of this website. Good luck, John U

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rfsmith1952
Dan, John, thanks. I think I will try taking it off. It sure couldn't hurt. Does that solenoid look like a a replacement? The solenoid on mine only has two terminals.. @John- that diagram shows "generator" not "starter generator" so I am a little confused...

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midnightpumpkin
It's a starter generator in the diagram. They are all wired the same if they have a Briggs engine. For sure, only one wire should be on the Field terminal of the SG. Follow the diagram. Yes, you have a replacement solenoid, that should not matter.

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stangman1
Most automotive applications only send 6 volts to the coil when the engine is running, hence the resistor on the 12 volt wire to the coil. The only time the coil gets 12 volts is when the engine is cranking. I can't tell from the picture, but is there a resistor on the wire to power the coil? The white wire would send a full 12 volts to the coil for a hotter spark when cranking, since it's on the starter side of the solenoid. Or maybe somebody just thought the white wire looked good where it's at.

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RayS
quote:
Originally posted by stangman1
Most automotive applications only send 6 volts to the coil when the engine is running, hence the resistor on the 12 volt wire to the coil. The only time the coil gets 12 volts is when the engine is cranking. I can't tell from the picture, but is there a resistor on the wire to power the coil? The white wire would send a full 12 volts to the coil for a hotter spark when cranking, since it's on the starter side of the solenoid. Or maybe somebody just thought the white wire looked good where it's at.
If he sends 12 volt to the coil on a briggs with the original armature, he will be buying a new one. Bob, there isn`t a small terminal and two large ones on solenoid? The small wire on the solenoid is for the safety switches.

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rfsmith1952
Thanks Carl. Pretty sure there is no coil on this machine, but I could be wrong. Don't see it anywhere. I checked all wires for continuity (Turn the key on, or you get all bad and wrong answers) The wires on the field terminal of the SG are good to the field terminal on the Regulator. The wire from the Armature terminal on the SG goes to the "G" terminal on the regulator and is conducting. The "B" wire from the regulator goes to the ampmeter, but was on the wrong side of the meter. I switched those around. (BTW I did check the ampmeter separately out of the circuit and it does move freely back and forth under a load.) The white wire, as far as I can tell, serves no purpose. I think the problem is a bad regulator.

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HubbardRA
Maybe someone installed the wrong ignition switch. There is one for a magneto, and one for a battery-coil ignition. They both plug into the same socket, but the connections are on different terminal lugs on the two switches. Make sure you have the correct switch. B/S with a flywheel magneto uses an ignition that is designed to ground out the magneto to kill the engine. A tractor with a Kohler engine uses uses a switch that energizes the external coil with 12V when the switch is turned on, and it just removes the 12V to shut down the engine.

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rfsmith1952
Thanks Rod. I'm going to try a new regulator if I can find one. Do you know about how many amps these old machines were set for? I figure the ones without electric lift kits were probably only about 3 to 7 amps. I need a regulator that won't kill the S/G or blow up the battery.

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BLT
In your area,is there a rebuilding shop that can test the two as a unit before you buy a regulator? Regulators jumped in price and are running about $65.00 new. And if you do get a new regulator, reg and gen should be electically matched for your sake. Around here electiacal compnents are non refundable because of misuse over the years by cuswtomers.

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midnightpumpkin
quote:
Originally posted by rfsmith1952
The wires on the field terminal of the SG are good to the field terminal on the Regulator.
There can only be one legitimate wire on the field terminal. Two legitimate wires on the armature terminal, one is the heavy cable to the solenoid, the other goes to the G terminal on the regulator. Any additional wires on these terminals were added by some PO and need to be removed. I take it that the engine starts and runs, just does not charge. After getting rid of the extra wires, start the engine, and momentarily ground the field terminal, the SG should put out a full charge 15+ volts, with the field terminal grounded. That will tell you if the SG is capable of charging. Then look into regulator issues. John U

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BLT
John, on the (+) side of the relay, you need the power from the battery and a power wire to the key switch. Then Bob was mentioning that the ameter was disconnected or bypassed and that would explain the third wire, that being the yellow one, maybe. The only wire right now that really is out of place is the field wire that has to go from the "F" terminal on generator to "F" terminal on regulator. Bob needs to chase down the wire from the "G" or "B" terminal on the regulator to see where it goes. I am guessing it is the yeloow wire.

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rfsmith1952
I think Ron may be getting to the root of the issue. The ignition switch in this tractor has 5 terminals. That is consistent with newer engines that have starters only. The diagrams that I have seen that have starter/generators only have three terminals. So the PO may have had to wire around the wrong keyswitch to get it to work, and in doing so caused the charging system to fail. Or maybe it did work and failed for a different reason. Who knows? I could just rewire it as John suggests; it doesn't seem like that much work, and would give me a baseline to work with...knowing its wired right. The tractor will start with that white wire disconnected, connected to the field terminal, and even connected to the armature terminal on the sg. @Bob - used to be rebuilders around here many years ago, I'll have to research that. Used to be guys that just did carbs too. Anymore, if a light is on, they can't fix it. I've never heard of matching a regulator to generator, do you know what is being matched? I know you can adjust regulators, although I've forgotten how. This is all old stuff like on cars I worked on 30 - 40 years ago. It's one of the reasons I picked tractors up as a hobby..I understand a lot of it. I'm going to look at the diagram of an electrical system that has a coil..see if there are any clues there..

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BLT
Sometimes the regulator out of the box can either under or over charge, the latter being the killer, as it is a sealed unit and gets no cooling ventialtion and overcharging burns out the field coils first. Thats why my builder likes to pair them up.

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rfsmith1952
Thanks. I think it's an voltage adjustment on the regulator. I adjusted one up on old jeep one time; blew all the dash bulbs out:D Any idea how many amp charging system this is? The Homelite T-10 is a simplicity built, similar to a 3410, I think

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rfsmith1952
Traced all the wires and checked for continuity. Found three problems: (1) That white wire in the pic above doesn't belong there. I removed it. (2) the ammeter connections were reversed; I changed them. And (3) the "G" wire from the regulator was connected to the "F" terminal on the S/G. I also corrected that. I temporarily installed a NOS regulator and polarized it.


I started the tractor and got 14.50 to 14.75 volts; so it is charging now. Then three more things happened: (1) S/G got warm to hot. I am guessing that is normal, cause it's working. I put a thermometer on it, and it did cool down after I shut the engine down. (2) Key would start, but not shut off engine. (I had removed it from the dash to clean and look at the terminals.) The keyswitch needs to be grounded to kill the engine, won't work hanging in mid-air :) and (3) the ammeter deflects wildly to both extremes. I checked the resistance between the ammeter terminals, it is less than an ohm. I got no reading checking either ammeter terminal to ground. I'm going to try the old regulator, and the other S/G from the T-12 while everything is apart, just to make sure they are okay. Thanks for your advice! I'm learning again!

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