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dlkelley713

cracked lift shaft...

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dlkelley713
Hey Folks, I have a younger sovereign with hydraulic lift. I built a front bucket for it (raised by the front lift arm on the right side), which I'm loving, but last week I was digging and moving dirt and noticed that I wasn't getting enough lift to fully dump my load. I thought I had a worn key or two, but when I got into it, I found that the shaft that connects to the hydraulic ram had cracked at both keys (where the lift arm connects). I'm not sure how deep the cracks run but I don't think it's fixable. Anyone ever seen that happen? I would have liked to have a lift arm on both sides of the tractor - it would have spread the torque across both shaft ends (and made my hitch design easier too). I thought about adding one on the left side, but the little nub of shaft protruding didn't give me much to work with... Dan

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RedbarnRick
I think you are referring to the rockshaft, I have never seen one crack before but a replacement should be easy to find, on Ebay try joe's outdoor power, are you using the hydrualic ram to raise your bucket or the manual lift? Pictures of your setup would help

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dlkelley713
Thanks Rick, I couldn't remember the name of the shaft, but it is the rockshaft. I'll see what I can find out there. I'm not real clear about the manual lift question... I have no manual lift. I extended the lift arm on the end of the rockshaft to get more lift at the bucket... On a related note, I've been thinking... It sure would be nice to have a lift ram with more travel. Some other mods to the rockshaft might be necessary, but it would sure be nice to get more travel without sacrificing leverage. Anyone ever changed to a longer ram? Dan

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D-17_Dave
The rock shaft was never ment to do that kind of work. The weight nor the shock loads applied from a front bucket lifying, digging and so forth are far beyound it's rating. Adding the lift height also makes this worse. You'll have to find another way to move what your lifting or suffer the same fate with the repaired shaft. If you have damaged the rock shaft that bad I'd bet you may also have damage to the bolts around the bevel gear box. Not critisizing anything your doing. Most anyone knows I'm guilty of pushing these tractors right up to their limits. But, they do have limits and I think you've found yours.

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Brettw
If there isn't a difference between the hydraulic and armstrong shafts, as far as bolting up a cylinder, perhaps an armstrong shaft would be the way to go. You could then mount a lift arm to both the left and right and engineer something that way. Still a lot of stress on the setup, but you would be dividing the load between two lift points, and at the same time balancing the stress and load on the shaft. I know that Ken, (1Litre) the guy I just purchased a HD tiller from, has a hydro lift 7116 that the shaft extends out on the left side of the tractor just like an armstrong setup, instead of being flush. He thought the early ones came that way. Just a thought.

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dlkelley713
quote:
Originally posted by D-17_Dave
The rock shaft was never ment to do that kind of work. The weight nor the shock loads applied from a front bucket lifying, digging and so forth are far beyound it's rating. Adding the lift height also makes this worse. You'll have to find another way to move what your lifting or suffer the same fate with the repaired shaft. If you have damaged the rock shaft that bad I'd bet you may also have damage to the bolts around the bevel gear box. Not critisizing anything your doing. Most anyone knows I'm guilty of pushing these tractors right up to their limits. But, they do have limits and I think you've found yours.
Dave, I know exactly what you're saying. I do catch myself trying to milk every bit of power and usage I can get from my little sovereign, perhaps pushing it a bit farther than intended. I'll check my bgb bolts to make sure they're still tight.

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dlkelley713
quote:
Originally posted by Mike
I made arm extensions, more height but you are limited to the point where the bucket will hit the hood.
Mike, I did the same, but unfortunately we give up some leverage by doing that. Trying to find that sweet spot between lift travel and lift strength is a difficult balance. A longer ram would help! Dan

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dlkelley713
quote:
Originally posted by Brettw
If there isn't a difference between the hydraulic and armstrong shafts, as far as bolting up a cylinder, perhaps an armstrong shaft would be the way to go. You could then mount a lift arm to both the left and right and engineer something that way. Still a lot of stress on the setup, but you would be dividing the load between two lift points, and at the same time balancing the stress and load on the shaft. I know that Ken, (1Litre) the guy I just purchased a HD tiller from, has a hydro lift 7116 that the shaft extends out on the left side of the tractor just like an armstrong setup, instead of being flush. He thought the early ones came that way. Just a thought.
Thanks Brett, that's what I'm after - being able to put a lift arm on both sides to share the twisting torque on the rockshaft ends. As Dave said, I'll likely have the same problem again if I stay with the current design. Lots of trial and error when you push the limits... Thanks, Dan

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MysTiK
If possible, I also would be interested in seeing any pix of your setup, design, fabs, details - any pix. I have seen a few front buckets done by adding sides and a bottom to a front blade, often using a winch for lift, and some with electric actuators for the dump, and some with everything electric actuators. I'm not clear at all on what you have for bucket. Most of these designs kinda push limits; but I think if sizes are kept small, and loads relatively light, that a lot of stress can be reduced. I should add I don't do welding or fabricating; but I am currently collecting friends/contacts who do. I would like a simple front bucket that would help me move a few yards of fill around on my property. Also, smaller lighter loads increase seat time fun. Whatever, it's all a lot more fun than shovels and wheelbarrows. Thanks for sharing your experience. My tractor is a 716H, and I have not seen much for this tractor; but it's something I have wanted since day one. Your setup almost sounds like it's close to being an FEL. ?

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dlkelley713
quote:
Originally posted by MysTiK
If possible, I also would be interested in seeing any pix of your setup, design, fabs, details - any pix. I have seen a few front buckets done by adding sides and a bottom to a front blade, often using a winch for lift, and some with electric actuators for the dump, and some with everything electric actuators. I'm not clear at all on what you have for bucket. Most of these designs kinda push limits; but I think if sizes are kept small, and loads relatively light, that a lot of stress can be reduced. I should add I don't do welding or fabricating; but I am currently collecting friends/contacts who do. I would like a simple front bucket that would help me move a few yards of fill around on my property. Also, smaller lighter loads increase seat time fun. Whatever, it's all a lot more fun than shovels and wheelbarrows. Thanks for sharing your experience. My tractor is a 716H, and I have not seen much for this tractor; but it's something I have wanted since day one. Your setup almost sounds like it's close to being an FEL. ?
As I'm sure many of you can relate, my bucket started as one thing and ended up morphing into something different. I'll take some pictures later to post, but I started out with a snow blade, with the intention of making a 'Roy' style clamshell loader. But I wanted to be able to load and empty my trailer with it, and you can't adjust the tilt with that style loader. Great for level ground, but not so great for picking things up otherwise. So I decided to make a regular style bucket. The hitch connects to the sides of the bucket so it's balanced somewhat better and doesn't require as much height to dump. I use an electric actuator connected at the front axle to control the dump and tilt function. The toggle switch is mounted on the lift handle. The original tractor hydraulic lift is used for the lift function (obviously). I'm using the original trip springs from the blade for lift-assist, and I swapped the rear lift cable to pull opposite the front so I can use counterweight on the back. I'm able to pick up about 200 lbs on the front edge of the bucket if I have my box scrape and 160 lbs of weight on the back. The bucket itself probably weight 120 lbs, with the hitch probably another 30. It's disconnected from the tractor now, but I'll try to get some pics later today. Dan

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rokon2813
Don't know what model tractor you have, but all I've seen, the factory rockshafts for manual lifts are longer than the hydraulic rockshafts. they stick out an inch or more on the left side to accomodate the handle.

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Brettw
quote:
Don't know what model tractor you have, but all I've seen, the factory rockshafts for manual lifts are longer than the hydraulic rockshafts. they stick out an inch or more on the left side to accomodate the handle.
If they are interchangeable, that's what he actually needs. It may very well depend on what flavor of tractor 3400, 7000, 7100?

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rokon2813
I'm much more familiar with the B series style tractors. As for the newer ones,I have a couple rockshafts laying around. No idea what models they came from, but they are very different from each other. I'll try to get a couple pictures later and maybe someone can ID them. I can also measure the overall length of each if it would help.

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dlkelley713
quote:
Originally posted by rokon2813
I'm much more familiar with the B series style tractors. As for the newer ones,I have a couple rockshafts laying around. No idea what models they came from, but they are very different from each other. I'll try to get a couple pictures later and maybe someone can ID them. I can also measure the overall length of each if it would help.
Thanks Dan, that would be helpful if you could measure and / or take pics. My tractor is a 1993 Sovereign 1692143. It's the only Simplicity that I've owned, so I'm not sure what changed over the years... On the armstrong lift, how much does the rockshaft protrude on the right side? Thanks, Dan

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Brettw
quote:
On the armstrong lift, how much does the rockshaft protrude on the right side?
On the right side it is the same on all shafts. On the left side, on the armstrong, it is about the same protrusion as the right side.

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MysTiK
93 Sovy, to my knowledge, is roughly similar to most older Sovy - perhaps that's too general, but the idea is there. Thx for replies, and I know the terms "Roy style" and "clamshell", or not. I saw Roy's on Michael's Tractors - (easy to search that). If it were me, I'd be shooting pix of all of it, assembled or in pieces, for reference. Even if fail. I know others are also interested in such projects. Your weight figures mentioned are definitely in the ball park. Going into heavier pushes the limits perhaps too far, not only w load, but also the weight of the materials used. Right on. And it's all a case of "boldly go where no one has gone before". Safety is a biggy, and the higher the lift, the more safety is a factor. Re lift capabilities - I'm an idiot on the engineering, but there are tricks where adjusting "attachment points or angles" of various components make a world of difference to "forces in play". Also not sure of this concept - pulleys, add an extra pulley gives greater mechanical advantage, especially to the lift mechanism used, and the forces that destroy it, or don't. Where and how things are connected is key. (eventually I might better fully comprehend these engineering principles, for now, I know only that these concepts are real, and beneficial, perhaps directly improving safety and durability and useability as well. This is definitely my 2 cents, and very general, but I have been reading every bucket thread I can find for a couple years now, and perhaps that will trigger someone else, who knows lots more about this. It's kinda rocket science; but easily adapted for design, or redesign, phases. Similar to this, the idea of using more force to overcome a problem, is not the thing - if the design flaws are creating the problem, they remain, until understood and resolved - and they will continue to thwart success and safety. In engineering, there are ways to calculate this stuff. The info is available, but not from me right here and now. Maybe someone else knows more. I hope my 2 pennies are worthy.

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GLPointon

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I had a broken tab on my rockshaft where the hydro cylinder attached, found & welded it during restoration...ok since As stated above, these are not designed to lift huge/heavy loads but maybe equal to or a bit more than a snowblower?...Good Luck sm01

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dlkelley713
quote:
Originally posted by Brettw
quote:
On the armstrong lift, how much does the rockshaft protrude on the right side?
On the right side it is the same on all shafts. On the left side, on the armstrong, it is about the same protrusion as the right side.
Thanks Brett, That sounds like it's going to be the ticket for what I'm trying to do... I'll keep my eyes out for an armstrong lift rockshaft. Dan

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dlkelley713
quote:
Originally posted by MysTiK
93 Sovy, to my knowledge, is roughly similar to most older Sovy - perhaps that's too general, but the idea is there. Thx for replies, and I know the terms "Roy style" and "clamshell", or not. I saw Roy's on Michael's Tractors - (easy to search that). If it were me, I'd be shooting pix of all of it, assembled or in pieces, for reference. Even if fail. I know others are also interested in such projects. Your weight figures mentioned are definitely in the ball park. Going into heavier pushes the limits perhaps too far, not only w load, but also the weight of the materials used. Right on. And it's all a case of "boldly go where no one has gone before". Safety is a biggy, and the higher the lift, the more safety is a factor. Re lift capabilities - I'm an idiot on the engineering, but there are tricks where adjusting "attachment points or angles" of various components make a world of difference to "forces in play". Also not sure of this concept - pulleys, add an extra pulley gives greater mechanical advantage, especially to the lift mechanism used, and the forces that destroy it, or don't. Where and how things are connected is key. (eventually I might better fully comprehend these engineering principles, for now, I know only that these concepts are real, and beneficial, perhaps directly improving safety and durability and useability as well. This is definitely my 2 cents, and very general, but I have been reading every bucket thread I can find for a couple years now, and perhaps that will trigger someone else, who knows lots more about this. It's kinda rocket science; but easily adapted for design, or redesign, phases. Similar to this, the idea of using more force to overcome a problem, is not the thing - if the design flaws are creating the problem, they remain, until understood and resolved - and they will continue to thwart success and safety. In engineering, there are ways to calculate this stuff. The info is available, but not from me right here and now. Maybe someone else knows more. I hope my 2 pennies are worthy.
You're right Graham, When you start pushing the envelope, it's all tweaking and tradeoffs. The bottom line is that with a fixed amount of force and distance (from the hydraulic ram), there's a fixed amount of work that can be done. That work is split between power and distance... to increase one is to decrease the other... You can lift more weight to a lower height, or less weight higher... it's all a balancing act. Then you throw in springs and counterweights, and next thing you know you crack a rockshaft! It's all good8D Dan

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dlkelley713
quote:
Originally posted by GLPointon I had a broken tab on my rockshaft where the hydro cylinder attached, found & welded it during restoration...ok since As stated above, these are not designed to lift huge/heavy loads but maybe equal to or a bit more than a snowblower?...Good Luck sm01
Thanks for the pics Greg. They sure would be easier to work on if they were all hanging with their bellies exposed! Dan

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Brettw
quote:
I had a broken tab on my rockshaft where the hydro cylinder attached, found & welded it during restoration...ok since
Although basically similar in design, that is an older FDT frame and not the quite the same setup as your Sovereign.

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rokon2813
Here are the 2 I have on the shelf. The top one, was in a hydraulic or electric lift tractor. You can see on the left end where the bearing was right out to the end of the shaft. It's 15" long. The second one is 1" longer. You could put another lift arm on the left, outside the bearing. It is even keyed for the handle. No idea what model tractors these are from, but as you can see, the brackets on each are much different.


You could not use anything from a FDT style, they are 13 1/4 and 11 1/4 for manual and hydro lift


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