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bowhunt4life

What would cause a S/G to go bad? UPDATED W/PIC

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bowhunt4life
Hello, I have a 1968 10hp Briggs on my Big 10. A few weeks back the S/G went bad, and after taking it apart it was fried inside. I picked up two used S/G. One from Ebay and one from a club member. The Ebay S/G got to me first and on it went. I used the tractor twice to till the garden and everything was fine. Ran the tiller thru the garden yesterday no problem at all. Went to start to day and nothing, no clicking, no spinning, nothing but a little pop when I press the ignition switch. The pop or knock I can hear when I put my head next to the S/G. Pulled that S/G and put on the backup and the tractor turned right over. Thought to myself bad connection on prior S/G so I put it back on and nothing. Now I did notice that the S/G would get real hot when the tractor was running. What am I doing wrong to kill two S/G's? I hate to put the S/G on that I bought from a club member and fry that too! Thoughts or suggestions? Thanks, Chris

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osenga
Not sure on that. But take the S/G off and grab a long rope and give it a yank and think how nice it is just to push that button. . Sorry had to say it but I would like to know to one of mine got toasted last summer and still pull starting it and not likeing it at all

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B10Dave
:O Chris. Your regulator may be toast and is allowing gen. to go to full output which will overheat and ruin it in short order. When tractor is running put a volt meter across the battery to check for regulated output. If your voltage is anything over 14 volts regulator is not doing it's job. Dave

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BLT
S/G's are a sealed unit for application reasons, have no way of colling and are limited to a max of 15 Amps output. Any more will tax the charge windings. That why they need to be bench checked to make sure you don't exceed the output value. And even when the are charging within spec the body will get warm to hot to the touch. I think if you spit on a hot gen body and it really sizzles , it needs attention, my 2 cents worth.;)

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B10Dave
Chris; like Bob says; gen. and reg. need to be tested together to make sure voltage is limited and amperage output does not exceed 15 amps. Any automotive electrical shop can test your units together. If regulator is toast you must get one for garden tractor application so gen. won't exceed the 15 amp limit. Dave.

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GrincheyOne
If the 2110 was running, I could check the V/R salvaged from the BIG TEN, which has adjusters for all three coils/relays. Maybe if I put a pulley on my bench grinder, I could simulate the S/G environment. Then again I think I saw an old washing machine motor, up in the barn, I could try the same simulation.


I don't know what adjustment controls what, but Zippovarga does, he worked for Delco-Remy for 20 years. Wayne

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bowhunt4life
I plan on going to a small engine joint today and getting a new voltage regulator and will be taking my good S/G with me. It sounds like the group agrees the regulator fried my S/G?

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ZippoVarga
Cut off at 13.8v, cut on at 14.4v with max amperage at 40. The S/G for these will never reach 40 amps, so the regulators are slightly over compensating. What makes a S/G turn and not turn. Two things...Bad Brushes, Bad Tail or End cap bearings. Too hot a S/G on one side or the other indicates a "rub" this is where the armature is hitting the pole shoe. This happens only when someone who isn't exactly sure what they're doing, tries taking things apart. The pole shoes MUST be set with a Jig specifically made for that model S/G, and if you loosen the screws that hold the pole shoes, you just created a paper weight. Easiest fix.....take the two bolts out that hold the end cap, tail cap and armature in place. Take the tail cap off. Put the pulley in a vice and lift the frame from the end cap and armature. The 4 brushes will slide off the commutator (copper piece at the end of the armature.) At this point, using ONLY compressed air, blow everything clean. Wear a dust mask or do this out side down wind. The carbon that will blow off is nasty stuff. Then, with care, lightly drag a scribe between the commutator groves. don't DIG! Inspect all the coil wraps to make sure there is no missing epoxy. Check the lambs (steel laminations that make up the main body of the armature)for discoloration indicating a hot spot or scaring from rubbing a pole shoe. If you see a pole shoe rub on the armature, find another S/G UNLESS you have a bad tail or end cap bushing or bearing. Check each end post and bearing or bushing for abnormal wear. Replace bearings or bushings as needed. Replace brushes (still readily available on ebay, you need 4.) The spring arms can be held back with paper clips for reassembly. Assembly is reverse from dis-assembly. Note...location pins on frame and tail cap will orient everything correctly. Once bolts are in, spin by hand in both directions to check for rubbing. No rubbing? Put power to the GEN post and ground the frame. Be sure the S/G is braced or you'll be chasing it. Don't test the S/G by grounding the case and tapping the "Gen" post with + cable. Do this as I said...+ on Gen, then ground the case. S/G should spin up then slowly stop when you remove the ground.If it slows down quickly, there is a "rub" in the case. Lather rinse repeat above dis-assembly and assembly process and try again. Sometimes foreign material sneaks in while you're not looking. If, after this, you cannot get the S/G to start/charge, you're best bet is to take it to a qualified technician.

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bowhunt4life
I went to NAPA and ordered a new regulator, be here tuesday, we went off the number on my part. 6A and 12volt 1119. Also notice when I was at NAPA with my part that one coil line was snapped. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/55chevy/2012-04-14102312.jpg[/IMG] Notice the center line snapped. I am wondering if this is the reason the S/G went bad? When S/G was good it would start fine but run it a while and burn it up. Anyhoot a new Regulator ordered and I'll have Yellow B10 Solder this one back as a spare.

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ZippoVarga
Thanks Kenny!! My ears were burning...lol. Thought I best give a little shout to what most of us can do to try to salvage a S/G before using it as a boat anchor. I've been putting off a Video on the S/G for SOOO long! I really need to step up and get to it, since it's about the most requested vid. Anyhooo, this will have to do for now!

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DanD
quote:
Originally posted by bowhunt4life
Notice the center line snapped. I am wondering if this is the reason the S/G went bad? When S/G was good it would start fine but run it a while and burn it up.
I think that was almost certainly the reason. If I remember correctly, the center terminal on the regulator is from the armature/generator. With the regulator receiving nothing from the generator as would be the case here, the field terminal should be completely grounded...effectively putting the generator in high charge. With no outlet available, extremely high voltages will be produced in the generator, potentially burning it out. Should have had no voltage increase at the battery when running and discharge when putting a load like the lights on under these conditions. THis would have had no effect on the starting function.

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ZippoVarga
My mistake Bob...Having worked with all types in the reman facility for Delco Remy, the different models run into one another in my head. Two brushes is correct. (after checking my stock pile in the shop), although, I do have a reverse turning Cub Cadet with two small secondary brushes. I would have to go back into the manuals on that one, but fortunately, it works as it should, so no worries there. lol Thanks for pointing out my mistake Bob, I appreciate it! I make about as many goofs as I do right...lol.

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ZippoVarga
I really should get this particular video done because it's about the most requested I've had. I'll see how things go after some of the local tractor guys get tired of talking tractors tomorrow. Might be able to get in a few minutes to shoot a general cleaning and inspection video.

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