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kawestonltd

712H, Built When?

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kawestonltd
New to the forum here, and looking for some info. I just picked up an AC 712H with 42" mower, tiller, and harrow attachments. The tractor has the electric lift and rear lift options. I bought it knowing it had a problem with the center PTO clutch and that it lacked a seat. Now I know it's an early 712H (pod lights), and am pretty sure it's a 1974, based upon the Kohler K301 numbers. But what is the mfg number? I know it starts with "169007" but the last digit, after the 7, is rubbed off. And I can't seem to find anything in the x-ref tables or "built when" tables that starts with 169007X and refers to a 712H or 7012H. Any hints? My goal is to find the correct parts manual so that I can order the correct parts to get the PTO drive working again and try out the mower. It's kind of fun to drive around on, but my purchase justification weakens each day it doesn't mow. ^

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rokon2813
1690076 as far as I can tell. http://www.simpletractors.com/X-reference/ac_s_pg2.htm what is the problem with the center PTO? several members have re lined the clutch with leather, otherwise parts are still available I think, but pricey. There is no direct cross from that model A/C to Simplicity, but the clutch would be the same as either the model above or below on that page.

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MysTiK
quote:
Originally posted by rokon2813
1690076 as far as I can tell. http://www.simpletractors.com/X-reference/ac_s_pg2.htm .... There is no direct cross from that model A/C to Simplicity, but the clutch would be the same as either the model above or below on that page.
I checked x-ref also - and I agree with rokon. Kinda strange stuff tho. Cross-ref, on that same page shows this: 712S 1690075 7013 1690015 12 HP, Shuttle, ML 1974-76 712H 1690076 None None 12 HP, Hydro, ML 1974-76 MFR 1690076 is recognized at the Simplicity MANUALS site - but they apologize, no manuals available. B) But MFR 1690075 is recognized at the Simplicity MANUALS site, AND has MANUALS AVAILABLE - operators & parts & 42" deck But it is referencing a "7013" which is a Simp equivalent it seems. And they call if "Baron" - no problem with that. except it has a Shuttle trans. But the x-ref lists the 7013 as a 12 hp, with Shuttle trans and the Manual is described as a 13 hp. "Baron". Perhaps the 7013 Baron is a Briggs engine???? Often the Simps were Briggs and the Allis were Kohler. not sure in this case. yet. I also tried the Simp numbers from the x-ref, and sure enough, it offers the same list of manuals. but recognizes it as a Simp tractor. Lots of fun. Anyway, the electric lift is not part of the original picture, if the xref is correct - and it usually is. So it's probably an add-on from previous owner. If it were an option, it would list separately as a different tractor w electric lift, or power lift=PL. ML is 'manual lift'. It's also strange that the Simp is only available with shuttle trans; and the Allis is available w hydro trans or shuttle trans. - more - :D xref page has a second lower section same page - this link here: http://www.simpletractors.com/X-reference/s_ac_pg3.htm shows the same info again - and sure enough the briggs/simp and the kohler/allis are spelled out nicely BUT - THERE IS NO MENTION OF 1690076 8) at all, on that page.{} Anyway, go get those manuals - they will help with parts. the parts numbers will probably be superceded to other numbers. (typically). For the year, I would go with the Kohler date - works for me, mine is a 1690211 AC-716H /kohler K341s, 1979. In all cases the MFR is more important than the year; it's just nice to date them. Also go here: get manual for ENTIRE late model AC-700-series - there will be differences; but maybe very useful anyway; I doubt the differences are too drastic in most cases. http://www.simplicitymfg.com/manuals/index.cfm?rd=1 IF that link fails, the AC-700series manual is also here: http://lawnandgarden.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/simplicity/1690211.html This manual is uniquely AC - people say the Simp manuals are the same - and they are not. (recommended) You will soon know if there are big differences between early and late 700's. I wish I had pod lights - but it's hard to get bulbs that fit. Seen this page yet? http://www.simpletractors.com/models/700_series/early_vs__late.htm Welcome to the most amazing website on the net. Don't leave before the miracle happens. sm03 sorry huge post omg.

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PhanDad
Your tractor probably looks like this (but hopefully in better shape):


When I purchased the tractor, the PO also gave me the owners manual:


You can see the model numbers in the lower left corner; the model number of my 712H tractor is 1690076. The manual is dated 1974. Here's the page for PTO adjustment:


And the parts pages for the PTO:




there's an AC to Simplicity cross reference document for the part numbers here: http://www.simpletractors.com/parts/parts_x-ref.htm I made a Word Document of the entire x-reference document which I find is more easily searched. I also have the AC712 parts manual in .pdf format. I can send you copies of both if you PM me your email address (they are too big to send via the club mail). Or as others have stated, you can use the Simplicity manuals.

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Kent
I agree that the Allis owner's manuals contain about 10 times the information as the same model's Simplicity manuals. I've a good start on a collection of those that I hope to get converted to .PDF format to make available, IF (and that's a big IF) I can ever find time to do so...

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MysTiK
quote:
Originally posted by Kent
I agree that the Allis owner's manuals contain about 10 times the information as the same model's Simplicity manuals. I've a good start on a collection of those that I hope to get converted to .PDF format to make available, IF (and that's a big IF) I can ever find time to do so...
Thanx Kent Finally, a believer. (can I get a witness, o yeh) 8D

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kawestonltd
WARNING, LONG POST! Well, this has turned out to be a handy little 24 hours of membership! Where to start with responses... Rokon2813, yes, 1690076 is probably it, but simplicity mfg does not offer a manual for that number. MysTiK: Thank you for taking the time to describe my frustration in finding the correct manual. I did download the "7013 Baron" manual, which looked pretty close. I also downloaded the late model 700 series manual. I did see the early/late model 700 series brochures here, which helped. Thank you for warning me ahead of time that bulbs are hard to find. I though I had a wiring problem (3 of 4 didn't work) until I took one pod off and the bulbs came out in two pieces each. Any good place to find replacements? PhanDad: Cherish that manual; it seems to be more rare than the tractor! And thank you for posting those pages. I'll describe my clutch problem below for all. I will be sending a PM for the .pdf part x-ref document. My tractor does look like that, but only slightly better condition. My deck and wheels are whiter, and my seat is not as tattered because there isn't one (yet). Kent, if information = knowledge and knowledge = power, then 10 times the information should be 10 times the power, right? :D I despise poor detail in owner's/operator's manuals. So, the previous owner said the tractor needed a seat, a "PTO clutch bushing," and rewiring to the electric lift. 1. "PTO clutch bushing" Since the PO had already taken apart the PTO clutch assembly, and I couldn't locate the exact parts manual, I wasn't sure what it was supposed to look like. But on my wild goose chase to find the correct manual, I noticed that almost all of the PTO clutch assemblies for other models go together the same way (pulley, bearing, guide, spring, guide, etc.). I need to take a closer look at my bearing assembly, since the smaller diameter portion towards the spring side appears to have off-center wear; but I only see one spring guide in the box of clutch parts, which makes me wonder if I'm looking at a worn spring guide stuck on the bearing assembly. ?? I ordered two new spring guides (Whittemore & Sons, Skowhegan, ME, for ~$3/ea), but don't know how the guide between the spring and bearing is supposed to seat on the bearing assembly. Which led me to believe I had the wrong spring guides, which made me realize I didn't have the right parts manual, and on and on... 2. Seat Will be retrofitting a Craftsman seat that was missing a tractor. Not original, but the price was right. 3. Rewiring to the electric lift Again, PO had already taken the lift off, but there are only two wires, so how hard could that be? Well, the ground wire was also disconnected, but again, not too hard. When I put some newer, better connectors on all wire ends between the motor and switch, I tried it, but only got a little bit of movement from the lift and then nothing. Then I read that the lift will only work if running on a full 12V, so I charge my suspect battery, and same result. Then I tried it with the tractor running, until the tractor suddenly quit with no warning. The lift took a back seat while I worked on finding the loose wire causing the random stall. Last night I found the part number for the lift kit, 1690043, which simplicity mfg DOES provide a manual for. I need to recheck my wiring against the included wiring diagram before concluding if anything else is wrong besides wiring. Whew, this tractor has become a typing project! More questions to come, but this is more than enough for now.

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MysTiK
You can post pix if you have them, and if you think it helps illustrate certain parts or assemblies. Two ways to post pix. Become a club member to post pix directly, which also opens up other areas hidden on this forum - like serious tek data, etc etc. Or, you can link pix from a pix site, like photobucket, or other. Membership info is easy to find here if you are interested. Used to be only members could post pix; but recently the benevolent elected administrative executive people here decided that might prevent people from receiving the help they need to restore and preserve these amazing olde tractor beasties. That's basically the foundation purpose of the club. There's a constitution to support everything. But really it's very 'simple' in how it all works. Club members can vote too. The constitution and simple rules exist to protect the club and preserve the tractors, long story short. just fyi. Mostly it's just 'feel the love' and sharing awesome information and a few gigglez too. 8D But some impossible questions simply get answered by someone else who has experienced the same proble. It's pretty amazing sometimes. I was thinking you might have one of the first 700-series tractors ever made. Mine is one of the last. Thanks for the long post - sometimes you gots to say a lots.

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PhanDad
The electric lift motor doesn't ground through the case; the polarity is changed on the two wires from the unit. The momentary contact lift switch has a hot (+12v) and ground "feeds"; the wiring of the double pole, double throw switch changes the polarity to the lift unit. The wiring diagram is shown here: http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44562&SearchTerms=electric,lift,wiring

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kawestonltd
Thank you everyone for your quick and willing help. PhanDad is getting me what I need for documents, which was my goal in figuring out when the tractor was built. MysTiK, my tractor's serial number is 1,300 something. Tell me my tractor is worth more because of it's age. ;) Like I said before, I have more questions, but I'm thinking it would be more appropriate to ask them in a new post.

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MysTiK
OK. Your tractor is worth more because of it's age. :D I know that a lot of people here feel the same way. This forum exists for that reason. It's literally true that they don't make them like they used to. Many people here will tell you that they would rather have a 30 or 40 year old tractor than ANYTHING you can find in some big box lineup. Those things aren't built to last. These olde traxtors were built to last. and it's happening still. It's similar with some other brands - like olde 'sears' compared to new crapsman, olde bolens, IHcub, wHorse, etc. Some of these names are manufactured new - but they are only names, the names were bought out by empty-D. Even mtd used to make real tractors like the 990, White farmboss etc. The problem w the new stuff in general is that they can be expected to cave in just over the 5 year mark. Check the ads. New maybe 2000, used maybe 500. I scan ads for olde allis and simps. I skip most of the ads, cos they are of no interest to me. And most ads are people dumping their built to break stuff, before it breaks - but most of them list as "needs this or that". and are overpriced. and I just don't bother. some folks buy n sell, or fix em up. that's ok. I don't know what yours cost you; but I can never complain about what mine cost me. I could recover my cost. From that standpoint, these amazing Simplicity and Allis Chalmers tractors are great investments. I have 2 700's - one is a parts tractor, and came with a raft of attachments. cheap. I have some other attachments too, and I'm into the whole gig for maybe a thou, maybe less. I've been led. Watch for the signs. Mine has paid for itself in pure fun, mechanical experience, 8) prestige, show if off to friends, and work done, and the work is like play. I take forever to mow my lawn. And, my tractor talks to me also. He's a boy tractor. Yours might be too - check behind the front grille, front of engine. I don't know how some refer to their tractors as she or her; mine is definitely a boy. I hate to think what others might have done to theirs. So, yeh, your rig is worth more for a lot of reasons; some public, some private, some collector value, some longevity value, some really cool value, and whatever else turns you on. Since you didn't pay thousands for it, and there's no great financial stress, and you love it, sm03 it's probably good for your health too. It's also interesting that you can find tons of help here - compare that to the pathetic warrantees on new clean shiny brands. I will choose "rusty olde junk" anyday. dOd But some don't want to get their hands all nice and dirty and greasy. I had a riot doing my front wheel bearings. At one point I just grabbed a gob of grease and rubbed my hands together - I'm just a nooby mechanic. 8D Peace .

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