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kawestonltd

712H PTO Cone Clutch Trouble

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kawestonltd
(I've just moved this post from the "Tech Tips and Articles" section, which it really didn't belong in. Sorry!) I've done my research, and have decided that my cone clutch lining is likely shot. The previous owner told me that his mower belt started slipping, so he took the PTO cone clutch apart and determined that it "needed a bushing." Unless he didn't give me all of hte parts, one spring guide was missing, one end of the bearing has been strangely worn, and the one retaining ring I saw was too loose to stay in its groove. At this point, I've purchased two new spring guides, though they go on a later tractor. Next steps, unless I'm wrong: 1. Make sure the bearing doesn't need to be replaced. It turns smoothly, and I don't see how the wear would prevent the bearing from being used. The overall length is still the same, but the smaller outside radius on one end is worn. From the side:


From the worn end:


One thing I can't tell from the parts diagram is if the spring guide is supposed to fit over one end of the bearing, or just butt up against it. 2. Re-line my clutch plate with a leather strap? I'm not too excited about spending ~$100.00 on a brand new clutch plate, especially when I have important things like headlights to buy. sm01 For all who helped me out on the "712H When Built?" thread, thank you very much! Here it is, the seatless wonder:

[br

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MysTiK
Is that the first ever '74 model? It looks nice. sm01 I thought it would be much worse. You must have given it a bath, huh. I would say it's been well preserved. Sorry, I can't help with the cone clutch.

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kawestonltd
Actually, no bath yet. All I've done for cleaning is degrease the motor and underside of the hood. So if I sell this, I can quote MysTiK of simpletractors.com as saying that this is the first 712H ever made, right?sm01 Does anyone know if the retaining rings used on either end of the bearing/spring guide/spring assembly need to be ordered specially from Simplicity? Hardware stores have retaining rings that would work, I believe.

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Brettw
I can tell you they are simply round rings. No eyelets for snap ring pliers, no ridge or flat area. A round ring. I needed one a year or so ago and it was still available at the dealer. Cheap, maybe a buck or so. And if I recall correctly, it is recommended to replace them when working on / rebuilding the cone clutch assembly.

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kawestonltd
Do the spring guides, spring, and bearing fit tightly between the retaining rings? i.e., does the spring apply pressure to the retaining rings or not when I put the clutch assembly back together? I still am wondering if the spring guide adjacent to the bearing fits over the bearing or butts up against it. Anyone familiar with how those two pieces fit together on the shaft?

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GregB
Get your self a repair manual, a parts list, or go up on the web like I just did to find this.
[img]/club2/attach/GregB/smallcone.jpg[/img]
Most of the online parts suppliers use a look-up system to allow you to find part numbers, and see basic assy locations. This one came from SEPW link on the main page of Simple Tractors

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kawestonltd
GregB, I've done what you suggest concerning manuals, parts lists, online searches, etc. The spring guides for my '74ish 712H are Simplicity part numbers 1650264 and 1650252, both superseded by 1671339. I have purchased new spring guides, and they do not fit over the smaller-diameter portion of the bearing, as all the parts diagrams I've studied suggest. But the one spring guide that came with my tractor is identical to the ones I purchased, and would simply butt up against the bearing. Did I receive the incorrect spring guides, or does the guide butt up against the bearing without fitting over it in any way? Sorry I'm apparently not describing my question very well...

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MysTiK
quote:
Originally posted by kawestonltd
Actually, no bath yet. All I've done for cleaning is degrease the motor and underside of the hood. So if I sell this, I can quote MysTiK of simpletractors.com as saying that this is the first 712H ever made, right?sm01
hmmmm - if you sell it? Sure, there's lots of fish stories in the world. You could brag that out for a long time. fish As for the site, I ain't touchin that. But there's a rather large CAVEAT about stuff like that. kinda sounds like not responsible for anything you read here. etc etc But I am taking this as a recommendation to degrease my own; something I have never done. Is that motor out for degrease? I imagine avoiding certain parts must be a factor too. But you can quote me as saying it looks good. And it's definitely "one of the first ever made". :D with the caveat that I am just some noob that doesn't know much. sm03 cheers dOd

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kawestonltd
BUMP... I have GOT to get this thing going. I put the PTO cone clutch parts on the PTO clutch shaft, and have decided I need to replace the bearing as well. The bushing in the center of the bearing is shot, and the bearing is sloppy on the shaft. Can anyone tell me how their inner PTO cone clutch parts fit together as I have asked above? "One thing I can't tell from the parts diagram is if the spring guide is supposed to fit over one end of the bearing, or just butt up against it." Anyone???????

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HubbardRA
It has been a while since I put one together, but I think it just butts up against the bearing. If the thin shim bushing in the bearing is bad, you need to replace the bearing. If you don't it will damage the shaft. I had that situation. Fortunately, I was able to clean up the shaft and continue using it. Also, on my tractors when I have no attachment belt on the cone clutch, I will engage the clutch so that the bearing is not spinning on the shaft. There is no reason to spin that bearing on the BGB shaft without an attachment hooked up. The only time the bearing spins is when the clutch is disengaged and that is the only time you get wear on the bearing or the inner bushing. I have had three of the clutches and bearings to go bad on my RBTs.

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kawestonltd
Ray S, Thanks for the link. That confirmed to me that the PTO clutch spring will be under pressure between the two retaining rings when the assembly is put together.


Thanks for the image, GregB. Does the bearing (part 11) fit inside the spring guide (part 3)? The spring guide pictured (part 3) is Allis part number 1650252 (also Simplicity part number 1650252), which has been superceded by Simplicity part number 1671339. And Simplicity part number 1671339 looks like the spring guide in the upper right corner of my first picture in my original post, not like the parts manual spring guide (part 3), which the bearing would fit into. The bearing end of my spring guide (Simplicity part number 1671339) is flush, not recessed. I'd like to know if this is okay before I spend 50 bucks on a new bearing.

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kawestonltd
quote:
Originally posted by HubbardRA
It has been a while since I put one together, but I think it just butts up against the bearing. If the thin shim bushing in the bearing is bad, you need to replace the bearing. If you don't it will damage the shaft. I had that situation. Fortunately, I was able to clean up the shaft and continue using it.
Thanks, HubbardRA. I was typing my additional question while you were typing the answer. Hmm, if they really do just butt up against each other, I wonder why every parts diagram I've looked at shows the bearing end of the spring guide being recessed?

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kawestonltd
Long time no update. So, thanks for the help on the questions answered so far. I replaced the bearing and two spring guides. Something still wasn't making sense as I compared the attachment of my clutch plate to the PTO shaft with the parts diagram. My conclusion is that the original threaded portion of the PTO shaft was cut off, the shaft was bored and tapped, and a bolt and washer replaced the nut that originally held the clutch plate on. I guess I'm okay with this solution, except that the new drilled hole was not perfectly centered, so the shaft wobbles slightly due to the off-centered bolt spinning on the end of the shaft. This will likely accelerate the wear of the PTO shaft seal. On a positive note, I found a thin enough strip of leather that has done a good job standing in for the worn out friction material. On another positive note, my lawn looks better mowing with the 712H than with my much newer (albeit worn out) Scotts mower. I spent $85 and had my electric lift motor rebuilt. I haven't installed it yet, but watched it zing up and down on a bench. Looking forward to getting that on and lifting.

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MysTiK
Hey, Andrew, where ya been? Wow, the first ever Allis Chalmers 712 Hydro with eclectic liftage to boot. woohoo. :D You are still designated as a newcomer after all this time. You should make a few extra posts to run your post total up to 25 ish. I think that's where the 'newcomer' changes. Good to hear you like the mowing. Does yours have the white deck on it? Or orange? Just curious. Any updated pix?

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