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MysTiK

Bulk Diesel Oil in My Gas Engines ??

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MysTiK
The local wally world has large buckets of BULK 30 weight DIESEL oil. Cost is HALF of what it would cost me to buy quarts of SAE30 in individual containers. SAE30 is recommended in my engines for summer use. The main difference seems to be extra additives for diesel engine use. According to the label specs, this diesel engine oil, is also ok for use in gasoline engines. sm01 This would also be convenient: I would have a large stock of oil on hand and ready for use. I would not have to go shopping for a bunch of single quarts. I would not have to dispose/store those single quart containers. I could eventually use the empty bucket to store used oil. I could do more oil changes for less money. The question is: ? What do you guys think of using this oil generally? ? The oil would be used in these single cylinder engines: = Kohler 16hp K341s = Briggs Intek 13.5hp (oil filter)(280000 series) All comments welcome and appreciated. sm03

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427435
Buying oil for small air-cooled engines based on price is penny wise and pound foolish. For heavens sake, you only need about 2 quarts. I'm using 5w-40 Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel oil in all my air-cooled engines. It is also rated for spark engines SL and SM. They don't get used a lot of hours per year and only change oil once a year (and sometimes, not that).

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MysTiK
This oil is walmarts generic brand "super tech". "diesel oil" It is available in SAE 30 or 15w-40. 5 gallon pail = 20 liters = approx $2.25 /liter I have been paying double that for SAE 30, and that oil is same brand. A lot of this is about convenience, proximity, price of gas to go shopping, and simply having it ready to use when I feel the urge to do an oil change. My gas guzzling pickup can eat up $10 on a shopping tour. My location is semi-rural, barely out of town. I have not found a convenient other source for straight 30 oil. And the price of synthetic oil seems prohibitive - my truck is using that right now; and I really don't trust it. (5w20synthCastrol). This was installed by mechanic during a recent repair; without my permission. With Levi's comments, I am tempted to use 15-40 for everything, including the truck, like he is doing. I don't know much about the brand, it's generic, which triggers a lot of heresay rumours etc. I don't know if a better brand is really better. Or if a lesser brand is different - there's rumours about recycled filtered oil, etc. I figure if they are using a spec rating, then it's good to go. I tend to think there's a lot of marketing gimicks in oil = such as = the price of gasoline = omg. 8) We are all just powerless helpless victims in this IMHO. greed, power, monopoly. I figure if some oils are truly better, then there should be rating specs to put one above another. Maybe those already exist. In my world of ignorant bliss, those specs have not yet appeared. ? I fully understand "penny wise". I am familiar with "pound foolish" but I don't see or hear any hard facts to back it up; or even some simple logic - except for the marketing and advertising involved in "branding" generally. I think oil is oil, and clean oil is better than dirty oil. And I believe in various grades such as 5w-20, 30, 20w-50. And I believe there's a lot of heat involved in small engines. I used to use Castrol GTX 20w-50 in my 500 4-stroke dirt bike to deal with disastrous situations; like trying to get the bike "unstuck", from some insane situation, on a hot sunny day, of pure fun. The cost factor. Oil change. 2 machines. total of 2x2= 4 liters. Looking at 2 oil changes per season, so 4 liters x 2= 8 liters for the summer season. Price difference is about 2.25 per liter = 18 dollars cheaper. And that would leave enough oil for a second season, in the pail. No shopping required, immediately available, no oil expense next year. Free oil. More money for BEER. :D Now if I could buy beer in bulk; hmmmm it would go skunky over time. Can't do that. B) However, drinking less beer could help do more traxtor maintenance. sm03 And eliminate that pound foolishness. sm01 REALLY, I don't drink much, never did. I tend to favour 30 oil over multigrade 15-40; altho that is interesting if it really tends to be 40-grade when hot. I don't believe cold startup is a big issue cos it gets hot pretty quick. Those are my thoughts on this. and a bit of my personal logic. I could be all wrong; that's why I want to hear from other people. @BLT - I don't know CPPI "ratings" - but I found no info at "Canadian Petroleum Products Institute" - nothing about ratings that I could see. ? Just general info. They claim to represent the oil industry somehow. No help there. Seems like more smokescreen politics protecting the industry. I'm not a fan of the oil industry. I worked a bit of gas well testing in Alberta - watched flowing wells running for weeks into atmosphere - enough gas to heat a town easy. It's about money; it's not about pollution from my car on the road, for sure. Greenhouse gas? gimme a break. bad joke. No, I'm not a fan of an industry that puts itself before the planet. Alternatives have to overcome the money barrier - that's what's important. so it seems. And the gov is heavily invested already. Any more comments on all this? Thanx for comments so far. This is wide open - if you have something to say - let if fly. 8D

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Kent
I usually buy the large 5-quart containers from Wal-Mart, though I buy name brand -- typically Castrol or Mobil 1. Straight 30w is becoming a "dinosaur" -- it was what was common 30-40 years ago, so that was what was tested and specified by engine manufacturers, whether for cars or small engines. Today, multi-blend is the norm, not the exception. I, too, like 15-40 for an all-season motor oil. As an aside, I run 15-50 for the hydraulic oil in my Power Trac, because the higher viscosity when hot means more power is transferred. When you're running three hydraulic pumps (wheelmotor drive, PTO, and lift/tilt/aux) all at the same time, hydraulic oil heats up fast. And the PTO pump is the only "optional one" since all are direct connected to the engine. With the PTO pump there's an electric diverter valve that just dumps it right back into the reservoir. The oil needs needs to be thin enough in the winter to start the engine -- since the starter motor turns the engine AND all three pumps. Yet, it must maintain as much viscosity as possible when hot to reduce by-passing. You can really tell the difference, both in the power to the wheels and the power to the other hydraulic circuits. When you buy 10 gallons at a time, that gets expensive -- kinda like changing the oil on a semi, but I also don't skimp on it, since it is the "lifeblood" of the entire machine... Should you want to educate yourself on oil, here's an outstanding resource -- the best on the web, by far: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

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dentwizz
Shell or GTX Castrol are the only ones I will use(of the affordable ones). I used a couple variations of store brands and the results were worrisome. The viscosity of the store brand oil removed at similar interval was considerably lower than that of the higher brands, that's enough for me to pay the little extra even though I can do an oil change monthly in both of my tracs(mowing biz).

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427435
First, (yeah, I know---nit-picky) there isn't such a thing as 30w oil. Second, while a straight weight heavier oil does not necessarily keep an engine from starting, it does increase the amount of wear during the warmup period. The prof I had for my engine courses said more wear occurs in the first 30 seconds of an engines running than the next 30 hours if the engine continues to run. He was a big proponent of 5w-20 oil back in the 60's when you had to special order it to get some. That's something I've remembered for over 45 years now. I also still chuckle about my old cars ('57 Ford and '60 Ford) that would start on cold mornings in the apartment parking lot (that my wife and I lived at when we were first married) while others waited for AAA with their much newer cars. Third, the comment about 10w-30 oil being a 10 weight oil with viscosity index improvers added is true--------------for dino oils. These VI improvers do shear down with usage and the oil becomes a 10w-20 or 10w-something. Good synthetic oils, however, do not use VI improvers---------their molecules are "custom" formed to provide the multi-viscosity range. And they don't shear down. Changing oil is not something that I look forward to anymore. One of the reasons, I like using the synthetics is I don't have to mess around with oil changes nearly so often. My sons ran a commercial lawn mowing business that paid their way through college. They had 20 hp Kohler engines on a couple of Scag mowers with 61" and 72" decks. Kohler said change oil every 50 hours of use----which would have been every week or so. They used Mobil l 15w-50 oil and only changed every 100 hours. You are supposed to pull the heads every 500 hrs and clean carbon off them to avoid piston interference and damage to the engine. I pulled the heads off one unit at 1000 hrs and found no carbon. I could also still see the factory hone marks on the cylinder bores. The other reason for synthetic oil in air-cooled engines is its ability to handle higher temps without breaking down. When was the last time you blew out the fins on your air-cooled engine??

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dentwizz
quote:
Originally posted by 427435
The other reason for synthetic oil in air-cooled engines is its ability to handle higher temps without breaking down. When was the last time you blew out the fins on your air-cooled engine??
Bi-weekly ;)

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rokon2813
quote:
Originally posted by 427435
First, (yeah, I know---nit-picky) there isn't such a thing as 30w oil. Second, while a straight weight heavier oil does not necessarily keep an engine from starting, it does increase the amount of wear during the warmup period. The prof I had for my engine courses said more wear occurs in the first 30 seconds of an engines running than the next 30 hours if the engine continues to run. He was a big proponent of 5w-20 oil back in the 60's when you had to special order it to get some. That's something I've remembered for over 45 years now. I also still chuckle about my old cars ('57 Ford and '60 Ford) that would start on cold mornings in the apartment parking lot (that my wife and I lived at when we were first married) while others waited for AAA with their much newer cars. Third, the comment about 10w-30 oil being a 10 weight oil with viscosity index improvers added is true--------------for dino oils. These VI improvers do shear down with usage and the oil becomes a 10w-20 or 10w-something. Good synthetic oils, however, do not use VI improvers---------their molecules are "custom" formed to provide the multi-viscosity range. And they don't shear down. Changing oil is not something that I look forward to anymore. One of the reasons, I like using the synthetics is I don't have to mess around with oil changes nearly so often. My sons ran a commercial lawn mowing business that paid their way through college. They had 20 hp Kohler engines on a couple of Scag mowers with 61" and 72" decks. Kohler said change oil every 50 hours of use----which would have been every week or so. They used Mobil l 15w-50 oil and only changed every 100 hours. You are supposed to pull the heads every 500 hrs and clean carbon off them to avoid piston interference and damage to the engine. I pulled the heads off one unit at 1000 hrs and found no carbon. I could also still see the factory hone marks on the cylinder bores. The other reason for synthetic oil in air-cooled engines is its ability to handle higher temps without breaking down. When was the last time you blew out the fins on your air-cooled engine??
I'm curious about this comment, since I buy it all the time

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mike_sdak
I think he is referring to the fact that W designation means winter grade, (not "weight"). I don't think a "30W" oil exists. BTW, I have now started to use synthetics more in my air cooled engines, based on 427345's comments in the past (as well as David Kirk over on Cub forums).

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427435
quote:
Originally posted by rokon2813
quote:
Originally posted by 427435
First, (yeah, I know---nit-picky) there isn't such a thing as 30w oil. Second, while a straight weight heavier oil does not necessarily keep an engine from starting, it does increase the amount of wear during the warmup period. The prof I had for my engine courses said more wear occurs in the first 30 seconds of an engines running than the next 30 hours if the engine continues to run. He was a big proponent of 5w-20 oil back in the 60's when you had to special order it to get some. That's something I've remembered for over 45 years now. I also still chuckle about my old cars ('57 Ford and '60 Ford) that would start on cold mornings in the apartment parking lot (that my wife and I lived at when we were first married) while others waited for AAA with their much newer cars. Third, the comment about 10w-30 oil being a 10 weight oil with viscosity index improvers added is true--------------for dino oils. These VI improvers do shear down with usage and the oil becomes a 10w-20 or 10w-something. Good synthetic oils, however, do not use VI improvers---------their molecules are "custom" formed to provide the multi-viscosity range. And they don't shear down. Changing oil is not something that I look forward to anymore. One of the reasons, I like using the synthetics is I don't have to mess around with oil changes nearly so often. My sons ran a commercial lawn mowing business that paid their way through college. They had 20 hp Kohler engines on a couple of Scag mowers with 61" and 72" decks. Kohler said change oil every 50 hours of use----which would have been every week or so. They used Mobil l 15w-50 oil and only changed every 100 hours. You are supposed to pull the heads every 500 hrs and clean carbon off them to avoid piston interference and damage to the engine. I pulled the heads off one unit at 1000 hrs and found no carbon. I could also still see the factory hone marks on the cylinder bores. The other reason for synthetic oil in air-cooled engines is its ability to handle higher temps without breaking down. When was the last time you blew out the fins on your air-cooled engine??
I'm curious about this comment, since I buy it all the time
You are probably buying 30 WEIGHT oil, not 30w oil. The "w" after the number indicates a winter weight oil that which means it's viscosity has to be BELOW a certain SUS to qualify as a winter weight oil. The winter weight oil specs only go to 25w (which I've never seen).

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MysTiK
The same wally world as I mentioned above sells liters of synth oil for $11. They did have a special on a specific castrol synth, in 4 or 5 liter containers for about 25 (ish) dollars (?), in various multigrades. It seemed like a discontinued castrol brand; they had other on the shelf that seemed like same thing w different label. ($11). But the heaviest grade was 10w-30. Synth oils seem to be lower viscosity grades typically; I don't quite get that. That, and the price, are what I don't like about synth oils. Plus, I think it's clever marketing. My motor likes clean oil. I see tons of similar marketing in lawn products like scootts and gooolffgreeen products, in their unspecified seed mixes and all-wrong fertilizer mixes. That's something I know too much about. Same with organic cons. My grass doesn't care where the nitro comes from, and it likes a taste of phosphorous and potassium. People buy those brands in high nitro and nothing else, causing rocket growth followed by starvation when the heat hits (perpetuating the market). But I don't know oil tech; and I don't trust the oil industry. So I start with "I don't buy it; don't believe it", and go from there based on dinosaur information. It's what I do; and it's driven by that attitude. More info of a scientific nature might change my mind; but I will have to research for myself, or learn the hard way. I went to BITOG site, that Kent linked. Found a table there, on Viscosity, that had a lot of performance characteristics shown by grade, and generalizing the whole thing, I could see how people come to use 15w40. It's the perfect balance. That was enlightening. sm01 The other thing, for (snowblower) winter use, is that people in other threads have often recommended the typical oem manual suggestion of using 5w-20 oil. But, here, in this thread, people are using 15w40, for all-season use. Specs I recall in the viscosity chart at bobOilGuy BITOG site, support that to -20 or -25 *C. roughly. So super cold winter sessions at -30 might be a little difficult; and would therefore still require something like the 5w20, here in Southern Ontario Canada; even though the typical weather is more like -10 to -20. Those extreme days or couple weeks are bad. In Alberta, when I lived there, minus 30 was common; sometimes for a whole month. Anyway, being a cheap sob, I am still tempted to go with the cheap oil; but now I am thinking maybe the bulk 15w40 diesel oil (15w"something") might be better than the NON EXISTENT GRADE. 8). And if I got caught with an early onset of winter, the 15w-40 will still aid starting, and enough warning, to get down to 5w-20, before the real winter comes in January. The alternative to that would be continue with 15w-40, and use a small heater in the garage when needed, just for starting. The super cold weather is generally shortlived here. Having said that, it might be easier to just go with the 5w-20 in late November, early December, after leaf cleanup - I hate winter. Other - is synthetic oil made from oil? According to CPPI, most oils are the same in that they use 90% base oil and throw in additives to establish characteristics. That's putting a lot of trust in additives rather than oil itself. But I don't know what is synthetic about synthetic oil; I really don't know anything about it; except it's cost is prohibitive, and really, there's got to be a little profit in there too - ya think? At $11+ per liter? Scoootts fertilizer costs double for the same thing too. (I found a local ferts manu w a small retail outlet, that sells "Slow Release 21-7-7 = this stuff is wonderful = recommended for any lawn.) But I at least admit - I could be wrong. And I allow you to make your best decision for you. :D I just look after me and mine, best I can. And I have many interests to cover. So it all has to balance. Otherwise, I lose by not being able to attend to some interests in other areas. My garden tractor, when I bought it, was running well on the worst blackest black-hole oil I have ever seen; and it took 2 oil changes with non-existent sae30 oil before the dipstick wasn't black. I can't see cheap oil being any worse than that. That was one low starting point. Kohler ran fine. And eventually quit smoking also. Just my experience. Graham . lots of room for MORE discussion here. Let's hear you and your experiences. sm01sm01 . .

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427435
It's supposed to get close to 90 degrees later this week and it's not unusual to see 20 and 30 below (Fahrenheit) here in the winter. I got tired of changing oil with the seasons. I'm just using a good synthetic (Mobil 1) year around in a 5w-40 weight. Being a synthetic, I don't have to worry about the 40 weight becoming something a lot less with use, and the 40 is great in an air-cooled engine that may run hot. On the other hand, the 5w will give me not only good starts, but quick lube to the cams and bearings when cold. Mobil also has a non-diesel rated oil that is a 0w-40. Here's a link to the various Mobil 1 oils. [url]http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf[/url] The Mobil 1 5w-40 Turbo Diesel oil can often be found on sale at auto parts stores for $20-25 in gallon containers ($5-6 a quart).

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1Litre
There is so many aspects to oil that you can not cover it here. Look on the web for Motor oil.com independant site. You can plug in the specs for your oil and come out with a grade on a point system that will show how good the oil is. It also had a huge spec sheet with hundreds of brands and weights of oils with the grade . You will have to go to the oil company site to get the complete specs to use the formula to grade your choice of oil. Dont be surprised that some major brand oils and expensive synthetics had a lower grade than conventional oils.

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427435
quote:
Originally posted by 1Litre
There is so many aspects to oil that you can not cover it here. Look on the web for Motor oil.com independant site. You can plug in the specs for your oil and come out with a grade on a point system that will show how good the oil is. It also had a huge spec sheet with hundreds of brands and weights of oils with the grade . You will have to go to the oil company site to get the complete specs to use the formula to grade your choice of oil. Dont be surprised that some major brand oils and expensive synthetics had a lower grade than conventional oils.
I hope their "tests" and "reports" work better than their web site------all I get is the name.

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perry
quote:
Originally posted by 427435
Buying oil for small air-cooled engines based on price is penny wise and pound foolish. For heavens sake, you only need about 2 quarts.
it can add up when you have 8 + tractors to service. I had 16 at one time. was getting forgetful of witch ones i did oil changes on. i started writing them down in a notebook . I buy the gallon of rotella SAE30 . personaly i will not buy wally world brand oil ever again. I bought some chainsaw bar oil from there at it was awfull. looked and smelled like used oil. was so thin it made my chain smoke while cutting.

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jmhusby
I guess people can spend what they feel is right for their equiptment but for me oil is still cheaper than overhauling an engine. Never would buy a WW brand of oil. Use Castrol in the 10-30 where it calls for 10-30 and Briggs calls for 30W in their 30HP in the 2012 Prestige. If it allows going to switch to the synthetic blend Castrol after its broke in. Here's a question I have for the experts--you see in some brands like Vavolene HIGH MILEAGE oil. Whats supposed to be the difference in regular and HIGH MILEAGE?sm00

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427435
quote:
Originally posted by perry
quote:
Originally posted by 427435
Buying oil for small air-cooled engines based on price is penny wise and pound foolish. For heavens sake, you only need about 2 quarts.
it can add up when you have 8 + tractors to service. I had 16 at one time. was getting forgetful of witch ones i did oil changes on. i started writing them down in a notebook . I buy the gallon of rotella SAE30 . personaly i will not buy wally world brand oil ever again. I bought some chainsaw bar oil from there at it was awfull. looked and smelled like used oil. was so thin it made my chain smoke while cutting.
You've got a few more than I have to service, but I lose track of mine also. That's part of the reason I use Mobil 1. Some of my units may only get 5 hrs a year on them and if the tractor happens to go a couple of years without changing the oil, no big deal. The synthetics have a lot more detergent and neutralizers in them because there is no VI improver in them.

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RayS
quote:
Originally posted by jmhusby
I guess people can spend what they feel is right for their equiptment but for me oil is still cheaper than overhauling an engine. Never would buy a WW brand of oil. Use Castrol in the 10-30 where it calls for 10-30 and Briggs calls for 30W in their 30HP in the 2012 Prestige. If it allows going to switch to the synthetic blend Castrol after its broke in. Here's a question I have for the experts--you see in some brands like Vavolene HIGH MILEAGE oil. Whats supposed to be the difference in regular and HIGH MILEAGE?sm00
According to the MSDS sheet at my local Walmart there store brand is bottled by Mobile. I use it in my truck and a couple of mowers. I would check there MSDS book in your local store to see where it is bottled at. Walmart brand bottled by Mobile more than likely would be the same as mobile. Kent`s link above is an excellent read.

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1Litre
Max life has a little more additives to protect the oil from issues that may show up in worn engines. Seal conditioner to slow leaks of worn ,aged seals. Friction modifiers and viscosity stabilizers to slow wear of parts. Additives to stabilize oil to reduce burn off(consumption). More detergents to reduce sludge buildup.

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Architectdave
To anyone who doesn't trust Syntheyic oil, I put 304k miles on a Nissan Pathfinder over 12 years and the tranny failed so i sold it the engine was still mint. I'll never use anything else and you can go 10k between changes......win win in my book. Dave

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Dark
its been posted and maybe needs tyo go into the tech section but herew it is again... Oil Recommendations for Briggs To optimize engine performance, (Disclaimer)(use Warranty Certified Briggs & Stratton Small Engine Oil). Briggs & Stratton offers a Synthetic 5W-30 oil that provides the best protection at all temperatures as well as improved starting with less oil consumption. For optimum performance, you should change the oil in your small engine after the first five hours of use and then annually, or every 50 hours of use (whichever comes first). Use Briggs & Stratton SAE 30W Oil above 40°F (4°C) for all of our engines. Check oil level regularly. Air-cooled engines burn about an ounce of oil per cylinder, per hour. Fill to mark on dipstick. DO NOT OVERFILL. Oil Recommendation SAE 30 40°F and higher (5°C and higher) is good for all purpose use above 40°F, use below 40°F will cause hard starting. 10W-30 0 to 100 °F (-18 to 38 °C) is better for varying temperature conditions. This grade of oil improves cold weather starting, but may increase oil consumption at 80°F(27°C) or higher. Synthetic 5W-30 -20 to 120 °F (-30 to 40 °C) provides the best protection at all temperatures as well as improved starting with less oil consumption. 5W-30 40 °F and below (5 °C and below) is recommended for winter use, and works best in cold conditions. Type of oil to use Use a high quality detergent oil classified "For Service SF, SG, SH, SJ" or higher. Do not use special additives. Oil Recommendations For Kohler 10W-30 (Command Oil)(Disclaimer) is recommended for Command, Courage, Command PRO, Command PRO CS, Triad OHC, and Aegis engines for temperatures above freezing (32°F, 0°C). SAE-30 is an acceptable substitute if temperatures are above 50°F, 10°C. K-Series and Magnum engines should use SAE 30 (Magnum Oil) above freezing. 5W-20 or 5W-30 can be used in all engines when temperatures are below freezing. For more complete oil specifications refer to your owner's manual. For optimum performance, Kohler's special blend oils are available from your KOHLER dealer. Synthetic oils meeting the classifications listed in the owner's manual may be used, however oil changes still need to be performed at the recommended intervals. To allow the piston rings to seat properly, Kohler recommends operating a new or rebuilt engine for at least 50 hours on standard oil before switching to the synthetic oil. REGARDLESS OF OIL BRAND ALWAYS READ THE DONUT
[img]http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/attach/Dark/oil_burst.jpg[/img]

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