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adame

Can't get my 7016 to start without charger

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adame
I have an early 1980's 7016 garden tractor that I can not get to start without a charger on 24v start mode. It ran like a champ for 3 yrs and one day my starter generator went up in smoke when I tried to start it. Since that day I have replaced the starter/generator, starter solenoid, relay, switch, battery and coil. When I start it with the charger it runs fine. If I try to start it without the charger it backfires. I am out of ideas as to what else could cause this issue.

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HoytBow1
Can you rope start it? Loosen the SG and tie the belt back away from the driveshaft and flywheel pulley and try to rope start it then report back. The flywheel pulley is probably notched to accept a knot in a short rope.

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MysTiK
Small help for the starter to spin - push the clutch in - that effectively disconnects the trans load, making it easier to spin. 2nd the call to check and clean all connections/contacts. I wonder if valve clearances is part of this???? and Welcome to the club. sm01

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BLT
quote:
Originally posted by adame
I have an early 1980's 7016 garden tractor that I can not get to start without a charger on 24v start mode. It ran like a champ for 3 yrs and one day my starter generator went up in smoke when I tried to start it. Since that day I have replaced the starter/generator, starter solenoid, relay, switch, battery and coil. When I start it with the charger it runs fine. If I try to start it without the charger it backfires. I am out of ideas as to what else could cause this issue.
What coil?

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Ronald Hribar
I tightened belt too tight once thinking I could get it to spin over easier Acted like dead battery. Knowing that is all I did was tighten belt. I loosened it and all was well

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MysTiK
I was thinking what relay?? Is there a relay? :D 8D :D I've seen relay added to facilitate starting in some. (?) (sigh) one of these day i'm gonna learn about electricals. B)

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goatfarmer
My BIL's MTD acted like this. Turned out what was happening was the carb was leaking internally, and hydrolocking the engine. But that was on a vertical shaft engine, yours is a horizontal.

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adame
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
quote:
Originally posted by adame
I have an early 1980's 7016 garden tractor that I can not get to start without a charger on 24v start mode. It ran like a champ for 3 yrs and one day my starter generator went up in smoke when I tried to start it. Since that day I have replaced the starter/generator, starter solenoid, relay, switch, battery and coil. When I start it with the charger it runs fine. If I try to start it without the charger it backfires. I am out of ideas as to what else could cause this issue.
What coil?
The tractor has electronic ignition on it.

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BLT
Then you have to start working backwards. Disconnect and tag the wires off both "A" & "F" terminals of SG and the spin the nut back on the "A" terminal. With the 12V battery charged and with jumper cables run the positive lead to the SG "A" terminal nut and with the ground wire touch it to the frame where the adjusting strap connect and the motor should rotate, if not there are starter problems. If it does rotate you have to start working backwards to see where the problem lies.

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adame
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
Then you have to start working backwards. Disconnect and tag the wires off both "A" & "F" terminals of SG and the spin the nut back on the "A" terminal. With the 12V battery charged and with jumper cables run the positive lead to the SG "A" terminal nut and with the ground wire touch it to the frame where the adjusting strap connect and the motor should rotate, if not there are starter problems. If it does rotate you have to start working backwards to see where the problem lies.
ok I will try that. I will let you know. Thanks so much for the info.

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HoytBow1
quote:
Originally posted by GLPointon
Try a battery??? You cant rope start a 7000 series. not by design anyways...sm01
Yes you can. At least the ones with a starter generator I have seen have a notch for a rope just like the 3400 series and earlier ones.

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adame
quote:
Originally posted by HoytBow1
quote:
Originally posted by GLPointon
Try a battery??? You cant rope start a 7000 series. not by design anyways...sm01
Yes you can. At least the ones with a starter generator I have seen have a notch for a rope just like the 3400 series and earlier ones. Yes it has a notch for a rope.

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GLPointon
The early FDT's had a "notched pulley" on the drive belt side of the BGB. This was "designed" to be rope started. The 7000 series is not "designed" to be rope started. The only pulley I've seen on these in 30 yrs is the engine pulley that drives the gen. and it has a notch but it is not intended to be rope started with a belt on it and with this mounted to a driveshaft... Unsafe...no good can come of it sm01
quote:
Originally posted by adame
quote:
Originally posted by HoytBow1
quote:
Originally posted by GLPointon
Try a battery??? You cant rope start a 7000 series. not by design anyways...sm01
Yes you can. At least the ones with a starter generator I have seen have a notch for a rope just like the 3400 series and earlier ones. Yes it has a notch for a rope.

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BLT
Every tractor I'll bet was delivered with a Briggs operators manual. They show how to rope satrt it. Admittedly there's no mention about any drive driveshaft or belt removeal but I have read back where people have loosened, remoeved and tied back belt. Then when it comes to starting the OM makes a statement.
[img]/club2/attach/BLT/Rope start.jpg[/img]

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HoytBow1
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
Every tractor I'll bet was delivered with a Briggs operators manual. They show how to rope satrt it. Admittedly there's no mention about any drive driveshaft or belt removeal but I have read back where people have loosened, remoeved and tied back belt. Then when it comes to starting the OM makes a statement.
[img]/club2/attach/BLT/Rope start.jpg[/img]

Yep. Done it many times myself. Safely. I might not have a high post count on here but I own, or have owned, well over 30 simplicity and allis large frame garden tractors and worked on many more than that. I've had about all of them except the allis 300 and 400 series machines. Even had a montgomery ward.

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GLPointon
Hoyt &/or Adam your not gettin' it...Look back at my posts, I never said it can't be started w/a rope I said the 7000 series is not designed to be started that way. MEANING IT IS NOT INTENDED BY SIMPLICITY TO BE ROPE STARTED ON THAT MODEL. I have seen many dozens of OEM manuals/operators manuals/etc. and none (7000 series) refer to this. What you had there is a briggs manual (NOT SIMPLICITY) for an uninstalled engine which may be rope started. And even though Simplicity/AC gives out the Briggs manual that page shows an uninstalled engine being rope started... Simplicity didnt design it to be started in such a manor. PROOF: Even the early FDT's were only rope started from the BGB pulley (is wide open-SAFE) not from the Engine/Driveshaft pulley (UNSAFE) BUUUUT this is the last point I'm gonna make on the subject. The danger will be in Your hands...literally Good Luck sm01

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MysTiK
quote:
Originally posted by adame
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
Then you have to start working backwards. Disconnect and tag the wires off both "A" & "F" terminals of SG and the spin the nut back on the "A" terminal. With the 12V battery charged and with jumper cables run the positive lead to the SG "A" terminal nut and with the ground wire touch it to the frame where the adjusting strap connect and the motor should rotate, if not there are starter problems. If it does rotate you have to start working backwards to see where the problem lies.
ok I will try that. I will let you know. Thanks so much for the info.
I'm kinda wondering if this produced any results, or indicators. Also, Rod mentioned solenoid replacement solved his problem. Also, I mentioned valve clearances, associated with a hard start problem I had - Al Eden suggested excess clearance causing interference with compressn release on my Briggs Intek 13.5. I don't know if that's in play here or not. (just a shot in the dark) I tend to think the need to replace S/G was a symptom of the real problem; and it's not going away. I have seen unexplained problems solved by solenoid replacement. Digging deeper probably involves multimeter and knowing electrical specs. My thoughts only.sm03 (Thanks for the interesting discussion on rope starts - I have never seen that in the manual for my 716H; but that's a Kohler anyway, not Briggs. I was a kid the last time I used rope - not my idea of a good time - but a valid backup plan - maybe, desperation mode).8) EDIT = My 'hard start' symptom was the engine would crank to TDC and just stop there - I "smoked" the starter once only (afaik). After sticking at TDC, the next start attempt would push through (usually) and then I could start - full throttle/choke. If it sticks, don't lean on the starter, or it will smoke. Keeping battery charged was also key for me. just a workaround. I don't know the exact symptoms in the current thread however.

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HoytBow1
quote:
Originally posted by MysTiK
quote:
Originally posted by adame
quote:
Originally posted by BLT
Then you have to start working backwards. Disconnect and tag the wires off both "A" & "F" terminals of SG and the spin the nut back on the "A" terminal. With the 12V battery charged and with jumper cables run the positive lead to the SG "A" terminal nut and with the ground wire touch it to the frame where the adjusting strap connect and the motor should rotate, if not there are starter problems. If it does rotate you have to start working backwards to see where the problem lies.
ok I will try that. I will let you know. Thanks so much for the info.
I'm kinda wondering if this produced any results, or indicators. Also, Rod mentioned solenoid replacement solved his problem. Also, I mentioned valve clearances, associated with a hard start problem I had - Al Eden suggested excess clearance causing interference with compressn release on my Briggs Intek 13.5. I don't know if that's in play here or not. (just a shot in the dark) I tend to think the need to replace S/G was a symptom of the real problem; and it's not going away. I have seen unexplained problems solved by solenoid replacement. Digging deeper probably involves multimeter and knowing electrical specs. My thoughts only.sm03 (Thanks for the interesting discussion on rope starts - I have never seen that in the manual for my 716H; but that's a Kohler anyway, not Briggs. I was a kid the last time I used rope - not my idea of a good time - but a valid backup plan - maybe, desperation mode).8) EDIT = My 'hard start' symptom was the engine would crank to TDC and just stop there - I "smoked" the starter once only (afaik). After sticking at TDC, the next start attempt would push through (usually) and then I could start - full throttle/choke. If it sticks, don't lean on the starter, or it will smoke. Keeping battery charged was also key for me. just a workaround. I don't know the exact symptoms in the current thread however.
RE: rope starts, yes it is a good backup plan if your SG takes a dive. It is MUCH easier to start a 7016 with a rope than it is the early FDT's off the gearbox as you have much more torque. It is not bad at all and there is nothing unsafe about it at least not any more safe or unsafe than off the gearbox. I have started a 725 off the gearbox many times as well as a 3416H which is essentially the exact same tractor as a 7016H only with a Vickers hydro. Also, I apologize to whoever saw my not-so-nice response yesterday to GLPointon on this subject but fortunately a mod promptly deleted it. I was only trying to help the OP diagnose his problem through process of elimation by suggesting the rope start. I wasn't expecting to be called out when I was only trying to help.

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MysTiK
HoytBow1 - Welcome to the club. I missed it when you first joined. Sometimes the "kids in the sandbox" get a little carried away - I know I do, and have, and have seen some others go there too. I don't usually notice any long lasting little grudges. We all bring something good to the table; and like any picnic, things can get a little busy. One time, I trashed someone else's mower without realizing I was doing it - I quickly owned up and retracted and clarified my comments. Stuff happens. But I never saw any real nasty stuff - which is ok by me. You obviously have a lot of expertise. I also know there's a lot of people here with a lot of expertise, in a lot of different areas. In all cases, there's always more and more to learn. So be it. And, last time I checked, there's no lack of forgiveness either. There's a few rules in place. Have a look at the "Constitution" of this club - it's a cool read - one of my favs. Also, if you decide to become a paying club member, there are a few other interesting areas on this site. I think if you test the waters for a while, you might find a niche here that fits you just fine. Again, welcome; I look forward to more. sm01

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GLPointon
quote:
Originally posted by HoytBow1 ..........Also, I apologize to whoever saw my not-so-nice response yesterday to GLPointon on this subject but fortunately a mod promptly deleted it.
No Hard Feelings....Just be Safe! sm01

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