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MysTiK

BGB Rebuild PARTS - the Resolution ++

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MysTiK
I just ordered parts for rebuild bgb from local Simp dealer. Parts came through basically overnight - that's the good news. I called to see what the cost was. What was ordered was the bearings and seals - all bearings and seals. Price was not discussed. A gasket also came through with the order. I just left the details to the dealer; he knows more about this than I do. There's needle and ball bearings, seals, and a gasket - the assumption is that the bevel gears are ok and replacing bearings and seals throughout will get the job done. Cost is 160. I don't have all the details but 2 roller bearings clock in at 80 dollars, 2 of them - that's like 40 each for roller bearings. I kinda expected the whole order might go as high as 80. I expected somewhat of a high price; but this is double what I thought I was willing to go along with just to get it done in a hurry. Comments please - I am thinking I am getting hosed on this. I don't mind paying for convenience and fast service - this just seems like excess. Am I missing something? Are these rare, high precision, high quality, unusual, complex, or high tek? ??? Comments please. I'm not moving on this until I hear from you guys.

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RayS
The 172256 roller bearing is a proprietary bearing. It is made by Fafnir for Simplicity. The Fafnir number is 205K17. Download the manual below and type in 205K17 and it will take you to the Simplicity section of the manual. If you can find it on ebay. Your going to have to pay a dealer for it. http://www.ducasse.cl/common/asp/pagAtachadorVisualizador.asp?argCryptedData=GP1TkTXdhRJAS2Wp3v88hDETbI%2F9CDx0&argModo=&argOrigen=BD&argFlagYaGrabados=&argArchivoId=970

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Chris727
1685088 OIL SEAL @ 17.90 2118117 SEAL-OIL @ 2.85 x qty 2 2154279 BEARING-NEEDLE @ 7.65 qty 2 2154282 GASKET-BEVEL GEAR @ 3.70 2172256 BEARING-BALL @ 26.65 x qty 2 Hopefully you are getting new woodruf keys too, the part # online didn't work @ SEPW. Probably should also get new shims. Total was $96.90 plus shipping through Small Engine Parts Warehosue. I don't know what import duties would be but it might be cheaper for you to buy parts in the U.S. and have them shipped.

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RayS
quote:
Originally posted by MDB
Well, my take on this is if you ordered the parts you are obligated to take them regardless of the fact that you did not ask about the price. Live and learn........
;) kind of my thinking too! The guy did order them specfically for him. Wonder how much the over night shipping was to Canada? That is probably a big portion of the cost.

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huffy
Is that $160 Canadian? What's the exchange rate now? I haven't looked in years. But that might make up a small portion of the difference between what you were charged and what others have estimated. And I agree that the shipping likely wasn't cheap. The last time I overnighted something it was like $50 - and that was just some small bearings and washers that fit in a little envelope.

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rokon2813
The exchange rate right now is minimal. Almost equal so it's not really a factor. Most everyone knows dealer prices are generally higher than any other sources. To give a dealer free reign without asking prices is to me, well,,, I'm kinda surprised you didn't get "hosed" harder... But I've heard Canadien "duty" can get real expensive too so that could be a major factor, maybe?? And to get the parts basically overnight, I don't really think you got it THAT hard.. JMO

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RayS
I have shipped parts up there in the past. It is ridiculous for an item like a BGB and the paper work involved. I shipped two up there in the past and customs (or what ever you want to call it) open up and inspected both according to the guys that bought them from me. The post office told me that to avoid them from paying a tax on value of item is to mark it off as a gift.

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MysTiK
The overnight source is Oshawa, ON. It's about an hour away. I found that out when I was doing the fix on my hydro shifter. But who knows the history behind what Briggs does with warehouse pricing on this side of the border - those that discuss Cdn prices, often mention 30% - I often think 50% - but it seems to me that a warehouse would stock bulk. Makes me crazy rage angry.... grrrrrr.! I get it - I ordered it, didn't go into prices. I was thinking seals are cheap. and bearings? I see you guys discussing bearings, even some rare ones for prices like 5-8 dollars, occasionally rare ones at 20. And it seems you guys complain at 8 dollars, and look for better deals - I guess it depends what bearing, huh. Proprietary - that's a killer word I learned associated with computers. Anyway, I thought, yeh probably 40 dollars - so therefore it will really cost about 80. I did that math (?) as I called the dealer; and I thought 80 was generous. When he said 160, I was shocked. And said 'How'? He went though a list; all I heard was 2 bearings for 80 bucks; the rest didn't register at all. I have a history with this dealer, and some of the memories are good, and some are not so good. One time was pretty bad. But when I heard these prices, I quickly reflected on the 'not so good' and the 'pretty bad'. And I thought the worst - that I was getting some kind of real special treatment, how do you spell "s.a.r.c.a.s.m." }:) So, I am pretty messy and disturbed by all this. I am reviewing how this all happened in my head. I have a parts tractor that only needs a motor - that's a source of conflict, because I think, find a motor, and I think, use it for parts. It has a bgb that seems probably better than what I have, due to far less play in it. Enter my friend who is also a Simp/AC fanatic. I tell him I need to do a bgb, and he says he can help, cos he's done a few, and he's a real mechanic - it's funny, there was no mention of money there either, which has been kinda nagging me. :D:D Yes, it's good to laugh in the middle of a perfect storm. sm03 Anyway, he says, just get the parts and we can schedule when you have them. No problem. So, the idea is to preserve the really nice parts tractor, for one thing. Also, it's bad enough to have to split a tractor; but to use the bgb in the parts tractor means splitting 2 tractors, and total chaos with parts everywhere - omg. Talk about earning a Black Belt in advanced Tractor Splitting. the hard way. 8D:D This is like the story of my life. I try to be careful, and usually I am pretty lucky with a lot of stuff; but when I mess stuff up, I really do a great complex job of it. It's just how it goes sometimes; total disaster mode. Or so it seems - maybe all this is just a blessing in disguise. Right now it seems like a curse - and this 90% complete parts tractor almost seems like a curse sometimes, even though it was such a great steal of a deal when I got it, and got a pile of attachments with it. I guess it all balances out somehow. I need to think this through, and discuss further with dealer and my helpful friend. I imagine a return on parts would mean a restock fee. I just can't accept that a few bearings and seals cost 160 dollars. That's a price jack of near 75% based on the pricing from RickS - and thanks for that, Rick. sm01 Thanks also for all the info offered. o yes, I forgot. There's another thing in play here. And I have heard others express this also - that the dealers don't want to bother supporting these old tractors. I have experienced that also. I have gone from dealing direct with the boss, on a first name basis, to dealing with a real pita parts guy a few times. (and he's just awful, gotta nag him to do anything). When my hydro lever went, I was told by the boss that he would not take an order over the phone for those parts. So suddenly, it's possible to order bgb parts over the phone - so I did - but because I am 2nd rate customer with an old tractor, it's like wow, surprise, this is too easy = and then slam, the price pops out. It seems I invested in being a 2nd rate customer, which is to say I played victim to this abuse. I own that. That's my bad. I did not want to "bother him" about pricing. That's sick. Real sick. So there's a history behind all this mess - and it needs to be healed. It is obviously dangerous to continue as is, and yet the potential for attitude over the phone, is there, and it's fueled by the past events. Again, thank you to all who responded so far. I ordered it. And all I want is to do some clean honest up-front business. This is not clean. This is very messy. I also tend to think that, based on experience with places like NAPA, etc., that when you order, they tell you the price, as part of the process. Is that a valid point? Or am I really stretching things here? Some of this is a customer service issue; with an inconsistent history. To further complicate it, at this point I don't know the best route to follow. There's too many people pushing and pulling me; and again, I have allowed this to happen, and made some choices. I have to own what I did - but, I am not clear at this point on what is simply right. Comments welcome - yes, it's complex. And it seems everyone directly involved has a personal bias, or a personal agenda perhaps. Or maybe I am just whining. wah I need to think; and I am open to hearing your thoughts. I can take it, so feel free to speak. lolol. I can always whine later. Or laugh. It's a comedy of errors in a way. :D And pretty calm in the eye of the storm.

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MysTiK
quote:
Originally posted by RayS
I have shipped parts up there in the past. It is ridiculous for an item like a BGB and the paper work involved. I shipped two up there in the past and customs (or what ever you want to call it) open up and inspected both according to the guys that bought them from me. The post office told me that to avoid them from paying a tax on value of item is to mark it off as a gift.
I bought parts from another member. He shipped UPS. We discussed the shipping costs to my door, no problem. The SURPRISE was something called BROKERAGE FEES = slapped 40 bucks on top - and yes they opened the side of the box. Once upon a time I ordered a book from down there (FL). The book was about 10. But the time I got it, it cost near 50. It's hard to figure out what they do. But it seems to me that there's some company that just looks at everything and slams a brokerage fee on every item. They must be making a lot of money with these charges. Thinking, if I paid 40, above and beyond shipping - multiply that by how many thousands of items they "look at" in one day. But in my previous post - the Briggs warehouse is in Oshawa, just an hour from me. It's a warehouse. I am not personally importing - but I guess they stock the warehouse somehow; but in bulk. ALSO - the overnight thing is just how it works IF briggs has the parts in stock. So the price boost might be that they imported a warehouse full of items. Then the dealer markup. which is simply the price you pay. You guys get stuff REAL CHEAP. So it seems from what I hear mentioned here - but a lot of that is just private CL purchases anyway. What you really have is MORE TRACTORS everywhere, and people just don't want them. Up here, it's like For Sale, Piece of Trashed Tractor, $1000 obo. And lately, it's more and more like that. Check Kijiji, Toronto - do a search for "tractors". Set a 200 km radius to get the whole area. I got twice lucky on both my 716's. //250 but needed some work. First was a plain jane needed deck. Second was parts, no engine, came w deck, blower, cart, blade, chains. Now people ask/sell either of these for 7-10 ish. Need a big trailer and a road trip and a passport.:D Getting accurate info - I tried - didn't stick with it - but learned a few things, not much. It seems to depend who you talk to, esp. coming over the border home. I used to cross border shop for whatever at Target, etc., and always got gas cheap, and especially tobacco - a can for 15 US, cost 48 Cdn. Got nailed for that duty once - they simply tagged it with the Cdn price. But buying a couple packs? who cares, no problem. It's all been crazy since 911. I used to live border town; used to just walk over the bridge - nobody said a word. Used to buy "Red Ball Jets" - remember those? Clothing half price is still possible. Cross border shopping is a blast. but I don't live in a border town anymore.

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MDB
quote:
Originally posted by MDB
Well, my take on this is if you ordered the parts you are obligated to take them regardless of the fact that you did not ask about the price. Live and learn........
Regardless of the circumstances I am still sticking with the above quote. the dealer ordered them special for you and you need to pay for them.....

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PhanDad
When I shipped a muffler to a member in Canada, he said don't ship it via UPS because it gets hit with an import tariff or something to that effect. He wanted it shipped via post office even thought it was more expensive there usually isn't the tariff.

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MysTiK
quote:
Originally posted by PhanDad
When I shipped a muffler to a member in Canada, he said don't ship it via UPS because it gets hit with an import tariff or something to that effect. He wanted it shipped via post office even thought it was more expensive there usually isn't the tariff.
Yes, I have also heard that before - use the amazing USPS. UPS was the shipper when I bought parts from a member here. I'm not complaining about that, it was all really clean and up front, no problem. Just the surprise "brokerage fees". I called UPS at that time, and they were pretty good, except they don't handle the brokerage fees - THAT stuff is apparently all done by someone else, and UPS has no say in it - but they offered me a way to contact whoever it is - but I never pursued it, got busy with other stuff. I figured it would just be a nasty argument and I was not interested in the stress potential, so I left it and moved on. But I kinda regret not pursuing at the same time. Some useful information might have been revealed, and perhaps some understanding. Again, I make decisions and everything matters, regardless of the extraneous circumstances. Following things to full resolution seems to be the lesson - but doing so is not exactly enjoyable, and so I choose to avoid stress through futile attempts to resolve, or just save money. But there's obviously some bigger stakes involved, and I am not the only one paying for a lack of info, and possible abuse of power and position - and as I say "abuse of power", I wonder if it's all clean and above board. Maybe it is. I just don't see the need for confusion, and info not readily available UP FRONT. The notion of concealment and trickery, all of which is apparently legal, really should not be part of the picture - but it is, witness this, and other, discussions on border issues. There is info available online; but reading it is not easy, and requires attention to detail, and maybe a lawyer, or direct consultation with employed gov officials, etc. When I saw that, I stopped my personal investigation into importing. Importing is something a lot of us do occasionally; and the rules can change between those rare occasions. (sigh) Doing it more would yield an understanding of the hoops to jump through; or how to avoid them, etc. There's more than one way to do it - all legal options, if you know the details. Good luck. They don't want to make it too easy and open methinks; that's maybe anti-covert terroristic stuff, or who knows. There's always a bigger picture.

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MysTiK
quote:
Originally posted by MDB
quote:
Originally posted by MDB
Well, my take on this is if you ordered the parts you are obligated to take them regardless of the fact that you did not ask about the price. Live and learn........
Regardless of the circumstances I am still sticking with the above quote. the dealer ordered them special for you and you need to pay for them.....
Mike, I am not ignoring that. And it will probably go that way. What I am saying is that I don't simply feel good about the whole thing. And as I mentioned, there's a mixed history behind all this. I would like to take this opportunity to clean up and resolve the old history that's really REPEATEDLY getting in the way of simple straight up front business dealings. The messy stuff is affecting me and others. If it's going to remain messy, I need to know that. If it's possible to clean it up, then it's all good. Sure, I am whining about the choices I made; but I want the whole slate cleaned, if possible. Basically the past is exerting great pressure and interference on the present. My choices are in play. I think some other people's choices might be in play also. By pursuing it, I either realize it's my mess, or I help someone else operate in a clean manner with me, and perhaps with others. Or, I can just pay the bill and move on - but I like to know what I am investing in. Ultimately, it's myself; but I am not an island - there's a lot of interaction and relationship happening here. If it isn't possible to discuss, I bite the bullet, and live and learn. Maybe I just need to be a little more here and now in my business dealings. I would like those dealings to be enjoyable, and mutually beneficial. I can't have it all my way; but neither can someone else. There's just some loose, old, messy stuff lying around, and it's time to clean it up - if possible. If not, then THAT is the way it simply is. And I can move forward on that basis. I would rather clean it up, perhaps for no other reason than the fact that there aren't too many Simp dealers around, and this guy is potentially one of the best. Also, if he is the best, it does not help me if I can't deal with him. I appreciate your stated position; it's a call for me to be responsible for my actions. Regardless of the end result, that's a good place for future dealings - with anyone. I think I might be trying to negotiate understanding; but there's a bunch of stuff still in play; and I can't claim clean clear understanding - yet. A lot of this is just about me, no problem; I might have to clear that up myself. Some of it is just dirty laundry I suppose; but it's not all my laundry. And sorting out who's whose, is not easy, yet. What happened is known. How it happened, is not fully known. I am a central player in all of it; but there's some other stuff I need to see, hear, learn - whatever. Kinda like my signature quote. People who ask 'why', don't want to know. People who ask 'how', already know. As I ask how, I see my own actions, and the lack of full disclosure that I said 'yes' to. That's what's coming out of this discussion. I ok'd an inch, and it turned into a mile. OO And it has turned into a place where I am pretty far down the road with this stuff, and it's not easy to backtrack. There is not a REAL need for it to be that way - as is often the case, fear has undermined everything else. Long story short - I am processing a lot of unfinished business. Most of it would have been a lot easier when it happened in the past. I hope this makes some sense; either that or I just have to realize I am a raving lunatic. There's more to it than that; if not, I am really screwed. But hey, it's not all that bad, and neither am I. cop fish :D Isn't life just amazing - wow.!! This involves some impossible crazy stuff, like time travel - going back to change the present - totally Simple, huh. sm03

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John33051
I feel you fustration Graham. The local Simplicity dealer acts the same way when I go to them for my old Allis Chalmers parts and they have to cross them over to Simplicity....huff and puff...Often we try to build a working relationship with a company and it becomes a roller coaster of good then difficult experiances. I am on the business side of the table but I have found myself on the buyers side often as well. I would recommend that you visit with the owner and respectfully share your feelings with him. He might respond in a positive way and he may blow you off but it's worth a try. I often do business with Canadian companies for pump parts. If I need a rebuild kit with a bearing in it, the company will give me the bearing and race number and tell me to buy it in the US because it is a real pain since NAFTA. There is something about bearings that require additional customs and reporting. You might check the customs cost to see if there were additional customs charges for bearings. Good luck with your relationship with the Simp. dealer.

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MysTiK
Welcome to the club, John. sm01 And thank you for your thoughts. I am the kind of person who loves to sit down and lay it all on the table and sort if all out - in peace; not in attack mode. If that were possible, that would be great; regardless of outcome. It would simply clear the air, and maybe make future dealings easier. It isn't all bad with him; and I can understand business priorities. I just need to know things are right, and I want to lose the paranoia and distrust that is tending to creep in. It should resolve one way or another fairly soon. I hope you find a path here, so you can better work on your tractors, and pursue your interests in Allis/Simp olde iron. It's often as easy as simply asking the question. There's a lot of depth here. Use it. Thanks again. Graham .

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John33051
Thanks for the welcome Graham, I have been following ST forum for a while but felt your frustration last night and had to put in my two cents worth. Some times a box of donuts helps too, it's hard for someone to get mad at you with their mouth full of your Dunkins. And Huff, I just had to bring you into the conversation LOL!!! John

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Brettw
It would be hard for me to conduct any business transaction, buying or selling, without discussing the price. I can't imagine it, actually. I have ordered parts and then realized I did not really need them, or suddenly found them cheaper after the fact, and simply realized I had to suck it up. My fault / issue, not the seller's. Lastly, in the case of Simplicity parts, ordered through a dealer, I am rarely surprised by some of the costs. When I say that, I mean it does not surprise me anymore when some small proprietary Simplicity widget costs multiple times what I would expect. Other items I simply shake my head at how inexpensive they are, having braced myself for the worst. One more reason I can't fathom not asking "how much"?, especially with Sim parts through a dealer. As John suggested, I would talk to the dealer and see if he can help you out a bit, and then pay for the parts you ordered. Lesson learned. JMHO

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MysTiK
There's a history to it. This is just more. It's always the same kind of feeling. How hard can it be to imagine that a baggy full of rubber rings and metal rings would cost their weight in gold.? update - a brief convers w my mechanic friend - he fully understands what I am experiencing. Also he has searched the industry for alts to the proprietary bearings - with no results. It's a 'closed shop'. Perhaps it could be fathomed how a dealer might not mention the price; knowing it from experience - and - that experience is what I want from him, it's why I go there. And it isn't always forthcoming. I don't think my position requires a great deal of imagination. I doubt anything will change. The price will be paid. The real issue, for me, is about abuse of power - and I played right into it. And not just this time. I get a sense that he would rather I shop elsewhere; and I am not alone in that. So maybe I will; there are other dealers; and they are not that far away; a drive for peace of mind might be a good investment. It's all been said. This is not rocket science; price does not negate a pleasant experience; but other things might. If I truly experience any "help" with this; it could be beneficial to more than just 2 people. Relationship does not exist in a vacuum. That would be a non-relationship; that's not happening either. This is a strained relationship; I have known that for a while. As do others again. There are many ways to say the same thing. I need the parts - the other stuff is not part of the "deal"; but it perhaps counts for more. I am not expecting anything other than a receipt. This is live on the net. Simplicity Manu did not base it's reputation on this kind of talk. The game has changed considerably. I just like to walk away from a deal feeling clean. I doubt I am alone there either. So maybe I can change the world. 8 B) 8) 8D :D 8 I'm a great fan of doing the impossible. Fixing this messy pile of dysfunctional trash = priceless. Ya get it yet? Stay tuned, there's lots more where this came from. But it's only a nice idea. Probably NOTHING will happen; except a receipt. People have a lot of ways to appear, or announce, that they are just too busy to take the time to preserve reputation and relationship. That's not my decision; and I can't control other people - just this one person - me. All I have to do is waltz through the process. The way it feels will be all there is - no problem. I expect nothing. I need parts. Simplicity's rep was based on quality. Everything has it qualities. Everything. And it is noticed. I don't live in a vacuum. I feel it all; and feeling is truth; and truth is known. It requires no imagination either. My own experience is the only experience - the rest is imagination - the woulda, coulda, shoulda isn't. And the live and learn is only possible through my own experiences. After a while it gets more interesting as the notion of doing the same thing expecting different results becomes dominant - and that can happen anywhere; and as many times as I choose. It's my thing only. Blaming is a waste of time and energy. It's always my call. I am the only one doing this - but I can share my experience with anyone interested in hearing it. If no interest; it can't be helped. So I don't waste time when I discover the truth of it; but when I know for certain, it's all on me with greater emphasis and potentially greater impact. Then I decide who, how, when, where I interact - regardless. Simple.

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MysTiK
Much of this is about my ongoing desire to do clean business; and to do that in an atmosphere of trust. I didn't go into this talking price; I went into this pursuing real needs. I went to the dealer, and arrived shortly before closing time. As I walked in the door, I had a momentary nervous feeling that I had no idea what I was going to say. However, I immediately kicked out the nervousness. I wasn't there to follow a script. I did not need a plan. I wasn't waging war, and did not want to go there. I was there to find out how things really are. This dealer is one of the best available. My initial intro to him was through high recommendation by other customers. I went with that. It worked out well generally; but there were a few glitches on the way. Some of those glitches happened in dealing with another employee of the dealer. I found out that individual is gone; and I was not the only one who had problems. Anyway, I mentioned I needed to talk. And I did. And he listened. And then he spoke. We went through several of my concerns like that. On the cost of bgb parts, that was not news to him. He didn't think it necessary to discuss price - it's simply what they cost, and he never gave it a second thought. He discussed other similar prices, and prices with labour included, and said that sometimes it's obvious that a price discussion is necessary. For me, I realized that the numbers weren't really that crazy; but I take from this a need to know in advance to avoid surprises. That doesn't always work out either; but an estimate can prepare a landing zone for the end result. And in light of the fact that a dealer doing a bgb repair could run into big numbers, this seems like a safe alternative, and a better way to go, to control final costs. More will be revealed as the repair proceeds, of course; but that was the idea all along. (and it preserves the potential for an engine repower/replace on my parts tractor). More discussion happened, including the dismissal of the pita parts guy. The conversation was pretty direct, strictly business, and aimed at understanding rather than accusation, condemnation, or other of fear, guilt, etc. There was no war. I said I needed to discuss some things that were making it hard to do clean business and preserve an ongoing business relationship - and he was all ears, eye contact, relaxed, confident - a pretty clean experience. I thanked him for his time - about 20 minutes - and left feeling very good about restoring communication and the relationship itself. I was amazed how leaving my agenda and my ego at the door, made the entire talk a lot easier - and also facilitated going right into some of the messy areas, that had been problematic. I got to the point where I had nothing else to say, and had no more negative feelings. I even discussed thoughts and feelings about how people who deal in RUSTY OLDE IRON may not be welcome at a dealership. He dismissed all that notion. He said the parts scene is drying up; and he has customers with olde tractors that just won't let them go - often because they have all the attachments. I mentioned simpletractors, and he said it's a good website, and he has been here. I shook hands with him, thanked him for his time, and went on my way feeling all good. I noticed when paying for my parts, the cost was, after tax, final price, 154. I mentioned that was better than what I heard over the phone. He didn't say anything. An hour later I was talking to some friends about what had transpired; and how good it felt to restore and maintain a friendly relationship. Near Belleville, ON, he's probably the best Simplicity dealer in the extended area. He has spent 22 years building that; and he knows how to preserve it. It seemed easy to just talk; there was no need to rant, freak out, get paranoid, etc. And I am glad I processed most of it here, before going there, with a clear understanding of what I wanted to accomplish. That made it easy. Indeed, taking the fear out of it was all that was necessary. There's a message here to hear, for a lot of people in a lot of situations. It's kinda like, "Have a nice day, unless you have other plans". I have been watching this happen in a few areas of my life recently. Things can simply happen the way I want them to happen. What this means however, may not always be so immediately clear; and some of it may be a leap of faith. It's a good way to see people as they are, rather than how I think they are, or should be. Myself included.

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