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Freedom of Speech..?


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Is this what our constitution was meant to protect..? Are your kids listening to this "Party Music" when they're with their friends..?[A href='http://www.reuters.com/fullstory.jsp?type=entertainmentnews&StoryID=215935'][img src='http://home.att.net/~herb.niewender/wtc2.jpg'][/a]
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I've stated before I'm a Vietnam Vet who was proud to be in the military at a time when among many of my contemporaries it was the most "uncool" thing a 19 yr. old could do. I served-----they ran. My point is that there is a contingent of people in this nation who just don't give a shit and never will. I guess they are collateral baggage a free society spawns in the process of being free. Shameful as it is there is NO law against that picture. It's as bad as burning our flag in my view. Im not proud of things our government has done but it's still the best thing going and I'm ashamed of things some citizens of this nation have done but as a whole, we're still the best society in the world. With some of the sick things that go on daily in our country I sometines wonder if the real standard middle America is still out there........IT IS! This little club is proof of that! Dick
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There was a time in our history, about 50 years ago, when garbage like this would have been voluntarily censored along with the other garbage you see and hear in radio and TV. Remember when Red Skelton was censored for making a joke on short skirts and women having tonies on both ends?? Plainly acceptable by todays standards. While government censorship and bans are a bad idea that tends to run out of control, this nations people REALLY needs to start censoring this stuff themselves. Curtail the desire for all the sex, violence and drugs, etc , and you wont see much of it anymore. Corporate America also needs to get a grip on the trash they put out in the name of profits. Seems to me that all this Social disiniogration kinda began with the sixties generation, now it is those of that generation that are running things at all levels. Do you suppose there is a connection???? If so, I can't wait for them to all retire. (comments directed at the LIBERAL end of the spectrum)
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On 9-11-01 at 9:08 AM the tide HAS turned,,all the above nonsense will be eliminated,,Believe it! Isn't it strange that the more liberal in our society are so silent these last few days?,,
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Hey, wait a minute! I consider myself a Liberal, but I can't say I'm not offended by such displays. The constitution of our free country, however, makes free speech legal, and whether we like it or not, some people are going to exercise it in distasteful ways. I'm also extremely offended by anyone who says that us Liberals are unpatriotic in any way or form. My flag has been out since 9-11 too! I have not been silent! In the light of what happened on 9-11 and the premise on which our nation was founded this whole discussion item should be closed! We all need to unite, help those who have fallen, and conquer the enemy. Neither this incident in American history nor this tractor web site creates a forum for partisan politics. Anything more is totally unappropriate! Powermax_Paul
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Can't keep my mouth shut, Grew up a farm boy in the midwest, red, white and blue, apple pie and all that Good stuff. Hippies were some werido's way out there in Calif. graduated from hi-school and off to serve my country, S.E Asia, realization I been lied to, we wern't defending anyones freedom in that mess, hard to digest after you duck a few rounds. When my 4 years were served I got out, got stoned and grew hair down to my rear, I'm now thankful to my parents for planting my roots in solid ground, after many years, many dubs, many beers and much time spend with brother Jack Dan I stopped "altering my consience" and slowly reality has come back into focus. We Need a strong military, read history, be weak, be beat, we need Morle leadership, we need the CIA and FBI free enough to get thier job done, civial liberites at best for legal citizans, it been twisted outta context. My younger son inspite of being a 4.0 hi grad choose to go in the Navy, if you think the war at hand thrills me, get a grip, but life in focus I realize FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!!!!!!!!!!MPH
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One time when I was actively involved in opposing what I considered to be government injustice, a reporter who had been covering the story for months seemed shocked when she learned I was a registered Republican. She assumed I was a Democrat because she claimed I was obviously a liberal. I was astounded. I consider myself a conservative. I know many people who do not share my views, and enjoy debating them. Closed minded extremists (either right or left) are the only ones who concern me.
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Who said anything about politics??? Also in my book Liberal or conservative has nothing to do with Patriotism, and I cant say as to that I bite into its broad application to politics either. To me the liberal /conservative notion applies to each on a individual basis and has to do with where one places or shifts responsibility to and /or away from..And, by responsibility I mean Responsibility for ones own actions, own words, and providing for ones own self. And to reiterate and clarify on the censorship thing, State Sponsored Censorship is a bad thing that runs away out of control. Too many try to do this through the legal process for their own motives, IE ithe legal jockeying of words to influence the Separation of Church and State and the school prayer thing. Voluntary censorship is perfectly legal and tasteful as it is the public simply exorcising their own tastes in and on their own properties and lives which eventually carries over to the public forum. Rather than manipulation of the law, the tools of voluntary censorship are the boycott of advertisers backing a certain thing and making a public statement by writing and speaking on the subject. Its a purely democratic method as it also works from both ends of the spectrum. One other thing, should someone who is not flying a flag be considered unpatriotic??? Perhaps flag flying has nothing to do with patriotism either. My guess is we are all American whether it may look like it or not from a outward appearance.
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I guess I don't disagree with any of the above, except that none of the Dem's in my pool are opposed to a reasonably strong militia. I was born a midwest farm boy too in a predominantly German Catholic rural neighborhood. I never grew my hair long, but also never signed up for selective service cuz it had been abolished between say '74 and '79. Our (or at least my) Liberal tendencies, stem from the fact that the republicans like to tax the middle class and give it to the rich while the democrats tax the middle class and give it too the poor. Forced to choose, I'm more inclined to align with the latter. I just don't see where Democrats got the reputation for being less sensitive to our men in uniform. Paul
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I understand where your coming from Paul. I guess it comes down to a different perspective of things. Such as what one may consider a "reasonably strong militia". I prefer an "unreasonably strong militia" ...just in case. Another very good example of different perspective would be the statement/belief that "the republicans like to tax the middle class and give it to the rich while the democrats tax the middle class and give it too the poor." I commonly hear this in Dem circles and I respect their choice. However, I tend to lean in the direction that Republicans dont give my taxes to the wealthy. That the wealthy already pay in a higher proportioned tax bracket. As most of us work for a wealthy person(s) it would be in our interest to give them incentives to continue investing in us. It seems that the last 12 years of prosperity has done more for the poor than welfare every did. It always has bothered me that Dems tend to think that getting a tax break or cut(even when you pay more than most) is the government giving people money. Its usually their own money. The only people that are being GIVEN money are the poor...and other countries. Do I trust any of the Politicians in Washington, Heck No! But as you said we make our best choices. I'm just glad to see us all come together, especially after this last election's fall-out. Beamer
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have to agree with you Beamer, I've seldom heard of the poor enploying the "rich", Any tax cut other than a Flat percentage is a welfare check to some sector..Still makes my head spin how someone who pays no tax can get a tax refund. Must be my narrow mind.MPH
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Point well taken, Sam, but I just dont see how slamming liberals can be interpreted as anything but political jargon. Paul
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I guess what Sam, myself and a lot of Conservatives feel that since the vietnam war Liberalism has appeared to be against military growth. Profiling is not something people like to think about however, it is a natural reaction. So when liberal politics, and liberal social ideology moves to reduce our military, and verbally insult those in the military (as I have heard done most of my life)then a little anger is directed. We are a country that will come together, regardless of our politics, race, religion or simply ideology. You cant ignore that the last President made it a political promise and initiative to reduce our military and has performed some questionable military reactions. To my mixed emotions on both ends of the spectrum I too have seen liberals buying and waving flags in a patriotic display, but do notice that most of those that have worn or older flags flying are a majority conservative. There is some good that can come out of such a disaster if we remember our basic truths. I'm sorry if I have mispoken for any conservative person. Please forgive me. PS. I think Bush made a mistake in his reactions to the Cole bombing and China's attack on our plane. But I still thank God he is our President instead of the other two possibities. Beamer
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I suppose its because we have all been conditioned for years to immediately tie the idea of conservative/Liberal to polotics. Actually its part of everything from education, to corporate America, to the small country Church. And which way the pendulum swings in each has tremendous combined effects on society in the long term. What takes 30 years to do will likely take 30 years to undo. History is full of swings back and forth over the years. People can slam each others ideas about how things should be, but you can't slam someone for standing up for what they believe on either side of the fence. That is nothing less than honorable. Too many don't stand up for anything. But , as misfortune would have it, we all have something to stand up for now and agree upon.
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Well, Dutch, I guess I'm not that studied on the actual definitions of liberalism and conservatism. Maybe there's hope for me yet! I have to admit (like Sam said) that there are extremists on both sides of the fence, and while I'm on the liberal side, I do lean thru the fence sometimes. I do feel that while the above picture is offensive, it is protected by the constitution. I agree with Sam that some kind of voluntary censorship would be appropriate. But by whom? We displayed it on our web site! Whether the constitution is a living document or not, I dont know. I base my preferences on issues facing our country, not cold hard definitions. These definitions are dangerous in that they only serve to separate people into little boxes. Why don't the parties work together? Perhaps the special interest groups (the ones holding the purse strings) won't let them. (I'm very much in favor of the McCaine Feingold Bill.) Perhaps it's Hollywood money that is protecting what we see above. Not to bring in a whole nuther issue but the rep's have taken a very strong stand on gun control. I'm in favor of a three day waiting period and mandatory background checks. Meanwhile I'm an avid sportsman. I own five firearms. The NRA has too much power over the Republicans for them to work with Dem's on a reasonable solution. It always boils down to money! Paul
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I'd love to jump on the Gun issue but I doubt you all want to read another essay, but I will touch on the protection from lawmakers statement. Here we have an interesting thing going on. Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal, it does not matter here. Here you have LAWYERS writing the laws AND interpreting them in the courts. Talk about being in a position to self perpetuate your business and fill your pockets in the process. This phenomenon I have dubbed the "Aristocracy of Lawyers". A single class in society making the rest dependant upon them. If you doubt, look at how many things you need a lawyer for these days that you did not need one for 50 years ago.( at least for those who can remember) Its pretty easy to manipulate the law for your own purpose when you are the very author of the law. The voters ought to try and put more of the common folk in office to make the laws and less lawyers. Leave them to interpet the law. Maybe I'm full of it, but I have thought for a long time that there is something here to look at.
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Paul, I am a Republican, yet I am NOT opposed to Social Security, Unemployment Compensation, or Public Assistance. However, these needed programs have been prostituted into an attempt at the redistribution of wealth (American style Communism) by many of the Dems. Few Dems will admit it, but Ronald Reagan is responsible for the fall of the “Evil Empire” and the end of the Cold War by building our military strength. This generation may be terrorized by fanatics, but the threat that the entire world may be destroyed has been greatly reduced. Former citizens of the Soviet Union now have the hope for a better life once the dust settles. I don't mean this personally, but most liberals strike me as sanctimonious hypocrites. I can support liberals fighting for civil rights and liberties, environmental protection, minority rights, etc., without embracing or tolerating abstract views, but liberals won’t reciprocate. You state, "...I consider myself a Liberal, but I can't say I'm not offended by such displays. The constitution of our free country, however, makes free speech legal, and whether we like it or not, some people are going to exercise it in distasteful ways." I consider myself a Conservative. I am offended by such displays. I do not believe such displays are protected by a rational interpretation of our Constitution. Liberals claim our Constitution is a living document, so how do you justify your "like it or not" attitude. Why won’t liberals who claim to be offended, work with conservatives to resolve these issues..?
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I agree with you on one point Paul. The special interest make too many decisions by pressuring/paying the politicians. However, I feel these special interests groups are only there because enough people support them. People dont seem to want to stand for anything that means a little more hard work, discomfort or inconveneance. This statement includes all big organizations including labor, teacher and other Large unions. The problem is the lawmakers would have to create a law that protects us from.... the lawmakers. Like asking a criminal to arrest himself. We just have to keep on pushing. Beamer
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Yeah, Sam, I agree. How about a Doctor for a change to fix our health care system? Or another engineer, like Jimmy Carter was? Paul
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