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JoggerFogger

Differential Slack

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JoggerFogger

This weekend I took my daughter for a ride on the tractor for the first time. That was fun, and she even got to steer for a couple laps around the house.While we were riding around, I realized there's a lot of slack in the rear end somewhere. So a little later I found myself with some time (and weather) and decided to pressure wash the back of the thing so I could maybe acquaint myself with some of the workings.

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After watching ZippoVarga's video about inspecting the BGB for slack, I assumed I had this problem. Well, once in the daylight and where I could see some things, it turns out the BGB is tight and perfect. It's the yoke thingy on the front of the BGB where it connects to the driveshaft that's worn out and/or lose. I also figured out that the transmission is tight and there's no slack/slop there either. It's all in the differential or final drive somewhere. I started looking through the PDF manual, and searching for troubleshooting, but got nowhere really fast. So here's my issue: In gear, transmission doesn't move, but I can roll the tractor about 1/8th of a wheel turn, and all the slop/slack is in the final drive/differential area. Any ideas on where I should start? or is this normal? As with every problem I've had so far, the fix was so easy, it's been amazing. I'm hoping that my luck continues, and this is an easy fix.Edit: BTW, this is a 1964 Landlord.thanks,KM

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Willy

If you have slack at the yoke,it should be taken care of

if the yoke is loose it can pound the needle bearing

just behind the yoke and even damage the case.

I had it happen on a Big 10 I have.

I ruined the shaft, bearing'case and yoke.

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JoggerFogger

I won't move the tractor until that yoke is fixed. Hopefully the key is just worn out, or gone, or loose, but we'll see. I'm more worried about the differential.

I walked by the tractor this morning and noticed two new puddles of gear oil underneath it. Coming out of both sides of the axle seals. Makes me think that my pressure washer displaced some oil inside the gearbox up to the level of the leaking axle seals. I'll have to drain that when I get to it tonight.

I sense that I'll be taking apart the rear end soon, and I'm just trying to get a handle on how this thing works. I've never seen a differential like this before so it took a while for it to absorb into my little peanut brain. Pretty cool really.

I've looked at a few pictures, been confused by a few diagrams, and watched part 3 of 3 from ZippoVarga's on inspecting the differential, and I feel I'm well enough equipped to dive in and take the thing apart. I'm really hoping for another "ah-ha" moment where there's a simple fix. :D

-Kevin

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fishnwiz

Just think how easy the next tractor will be with all that you are learning on this one! ;)

Best of luck....You have come a long way in a short period of timedOd

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HubbardRA

You probably have the same problem inside the diff. The key that holds the gear on the axle shaft tends to wobble out the groove in the shaft and wear the key. I had one shear completely off from the wear caused by the wobbling. You get to this area by removing the collar on the axle on the right side, then pulling the right side hub off the axle.

You can fix this problem by any one of the following methods.

1. Weld up the worn groove and cut another groove for the key to fit into then install a new key and it is good as new. The gear is hardened so it should not be damaged.

2. File any burrs off the axle and cut a new groove on the opposite side of the axle.

3. Cut a wider groove in the axle, then use a wider key. The part of this key that sticks out of the axle needs to be machined down to the original size to fit the gear.

4. Get another good axle and key and install it in your transaxle.

Hope this helps.

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JoggerFogger

OK, now we're talking. I can grasp that idea, and I can see it in my pea brain.

So ok, I didn't grow up on a farm. The fact that we had one acre of grass to mow in way on the edge of the city is pretty lucky. The fact that I had a garden tractor to play with at all was pretty lucky too. But I did take metal shop in HS when all my friends were smoking weed with the cheerleaders. For my final project I was directed to a family owned bearing house in Portland that I have returned to dozens of times for stuff. I just lay whatever remains of the bearing or gear on the counter and they bring me a new one from the back in 10 min. It's called McGuire Bearing, and recently, every time it's cheaper than what I can find (or can't find) on the internet anyway.

5p go home

5:30p play with daughter

6:30p eat dinner

7:30p kiss daughter goodnight

8p dig into tractor rear axle.

Hopefully I'll have pictures and something mechanical to talk about tomorrow.

-Kevin

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MikeES

If you don't fix the slop in the rear axle you run a high probability of breaking the axle tube. The key will get sloppy enough to roll the key and very likely crack or break the axle tube.

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Brettw

As far as literal "differential slack", that would be best determined by first: Rolling the tractor back and forth while in gear to determine how much play there is in the gearbox and final drive. This movement should not be affected by the differential. Then, with one wheel off of the ground and the other on the ground, turn the free wheel back and forth, see how much movement you generate in addition to the previous measurement. That should be a fairly good preliminary indicator of the condition of the actual differential, in regards to play. The differential allows independent movement between the two drive wheels and should not have an effect on other drive line play. IMHO

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JoggerFogger

As promised, I have some results. None are too fun, and my record of simple fixes is over.Good news: The differential is fine. Other good news, the transmission is tight, and the BGB is solid.Bad news: Just like HubbardRA explained, the differential carrier key has wobbled it's way out of the axle tube keyway. I couldn't take a single picture that showed the damage, but video seems to convey the problem well. Luckily the carrier keyway doesn't look bad, although if I'm going to machine this parts, I'll probably machine all of them to match.

Next is the front of the BGB yoke connecting to the driveline. This will take some work as well.

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There was nothing tight with this area at all- as shown by the pics. So my question is: (and I think I know the answer) Do I need to remove the axle tube from the transmission to take it to a machinist? And do I have to take apart the BGB to bring in the driver shaft?At this point, I'm not really sure there's a part of this tractor that I haven't seen. My dad and I had this awesome machinist that worked in this dirty, messy, shop with gas motors all over the place. Dragsters, old cars, lawnmowers, laundry machines, boat engines, etc. Just crap everywhere. It was this rickety old tin shop with a dirt floor. Place smelled like gas from the parking lot, and the guy chain smoked. He was super funny, very cheap, and did great work very quickly. I really liked the guy, I liked going there and just looking at all the stuff. He was one of those guys that could just talk for hours and it was like a song coming out of his mouth. Chewed up/made up words, lots of laughing, and always a story.Anyway, about 15yrs ago the gas and cigarettes had a battle and the place was turned to ashes with the guy in it. So I'll be looking for a new machinist in the Portland, OR area if anyone knows of one.-Kevin

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CleanBee

My advice is to find a good rear-end and bgb from a donor tractor or someone selling parts. You will be spending far more money and time on that one and still won't have it as good as good used components.

Dan

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JoggerFogger
quote:Originally posted by CleanBee

My advice is to find a good rear-end and bgb from a donor tractor or someone selling parts. You will be spending far more money and time on that one and still won't have it as good as good used components.


id="quote">
id="quote">That's a good point. Although I live way out on the edge of the world, and shipping is spendy for these heavy parts. I'll have to price out the parts and balance that against the cost of machining. I have been watching for a donor on craigslist. That would be fun. A matching B-10 would be really fun. There is a guy in Salem (45 min south) that has a whole graveyard of small tractors and I see some likely subjects in some of the pictures.

3E23Lf3Ma5N25K65M2cch29127dc1cbc51f5f.jpg

If it's cheaper to replace than fix, then these parts are throw-aways. And by that logic I might as well weld the yoke onto the BGB drive shaft if I've just got junk. I'd just have to grind the weld away if I ever wanted to remove it.What's more likely to happen is that I'm going to find someone with a lathe and a milling machine and I'm going to try and revive these parts and put them back together the hard way. I am open to buying these parts from anyone that has them. I have no idea on what's fair, or what the new prices were or what.Thanks for all your help!-Kevin

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MikeES

My nickels worth: I think that your tube axle is OK, just machine/cut/file a new key to match the axle tube. Or what I have done with axle tube keyways that look similar to yours is JB Weld to make up the difference. I have used it on our pulling tractors and they have never failed.

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fishnwiz

Gotta LOVE JB weld! I once used it on a wollowed out key way on a cone clutch shaft.The darn thing lasted 5 years and I sold it with the weld(JB) still in place.

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JoggerFogger

Thank you for all the suggestions. I never would have thought of using JB weld.After much thought, I think I'm going to attempt the shade-tree mechanic method of using what I've got.My budget for this project is $0, and I'm already way over that. I've got a garage full of tools, and I'm not in a hurry. I think I can "massage" these little parts back into shape with a little time and patience. Worst thing that could happen is I ruin the parts and I have to buy replacements anyway. Best scenario is that my fix is successful and it lasts until the next restoration in 20yrs. :)I was "gifted" this HF toy about 10 years ago from a fellow motorcycle racer and I've only used it one time. I think it's time to dust the old girl off and see if she can help the situation.

photo.JPG

I think I'm going to weld up the sloppy keyways and file, grind, scrape, cut, and drill until I get something resembling a tight fit again.One question: Is the axle tube material regular steel? The only reason I ask is because it's abnormally free of rust. Although it's had a nice coat of oil-soaked dirt for the last...40 years.-Kevin

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MysTiK

Ahhh, it's a little lathe. I think it's cute. If it were mine, I would give it a name. sm01 Best tool I have for carving or repairing parts is a knock-off dremel w a herd of bits and a flexi-shaft. or whatever that's called. Tools are toys.

I watched your last vid. Thx for keeping it short n sweet for this 'rocket-dialup' user. Wondering what camera you use. PM if you like.

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JoggerFogger

I was thinking the same thing before I dug out the mini-lathe. Really, that dremel tool could get me really really close to perfect. Might take 12 to 30 of those little round cut-off wheels, but who cares?

I've been watching tutorials on youtube about different ways to use the lathe, and I think I can get pretty much all the things I need done on it. I think I can cut keyways with it too. I'm trying to figure out the right size and source a woodruff keyway cutter too. Or a whole set of cutters. This stuff is so cool!

All pictures and video: Apple iPhone 4

I was surprised nobody commented on me embedding a youtube video here. It was kind of tricky.

-Kevin

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JoggerFogger
quote:Originally posted by RayS

No idea how you could cut a woodruff key on a lathe. I am thinking a mill.


id="quote">
id="quote">I had no idea either, until I watched this youtube video: http://youtu.be/eVgZol6MfvoI'm going to build a jig just like this to cut/clean keyways for this project, and it wouldn't be a stretch to build a similar one to hold the piece vertically for cutting woodruff keyseats. I just need to figure out the right woodruff keyseat cutter to buy. I was playing with the lathe last night and it does need some fine tuning. Some of the rails are loose, and some of the dials need attention. I'm going to clean it up and grease all the dry surfaces. Might have to do a few practice runs with it before I dial in the real thing. It's far from a 5,000 pound metal lathe, but I think I can make it work.I watched another video with Adam Savage (Mythbusters) showing off his sweet lathe and he had an interesting point: "A lathe is the only tool that can build itself." Here's the link: http://youtu.be/lVgQ6khAI20Even if it's a total disaster, I'm having fun with it.-Kevin

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JoggerFogger
quote:Originally posted by maxwood

Hello, I also have one of those lathes, and I enjoy it. Mini-lathe .com is a site that has lots of info to set up and maintain your lathe. Check it out.Ken in Mi


id="quote">
id="quote">I just spent the last 1/2 hour reading through that site. Great stuff.Thanks,Kevin

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HubbardRA

I cut a new keyway in my axle in less that 1/2 hour with a Dremel tool. A stack of carborundum cut-off disks will cut the hole for a woodruff key.

If I had to do it now, my son has a computer controlled endmill. No problem to cut a keyway with that.:D An endmill will not cut a perfect woodruff key slot, but if you go slow, measure carefully, and keep the keyslot a very tight fit to the key, this will work just as well as a slot cut with a horizontal mill.

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JoggerFogger

Good! Love the support. I was a little hesitant to suggest my somewhat rudimentary methods that I think of in my head. Spending $300 on replacement parts or on a machinist bill isn't my idea of a good time anyway.Last night I spent hours in the garage and really got nowhere. I tried to fill in the worn out area on the BGB-drive line yoke, and my mig welder just put a blob into the rusty insides. I had to chip/file/drill that out and start over. This time I filed out all the rust (and my crappy first attempt) and started over. It's like removing decay from a rotten tooth. Then fill in with clean hot weld.I need to buy some smaller (and sharper) files for tonight. I got this far and called it a night at 1am.Weld blob:

photo.JPG

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HubbardRA

I was thinking that the yoke was cast iron and not steel. You cannnot get a good weld on cast iron unless you are using a nickel rod.

You can tell if part is cast iron by touching it with a grinder. Steel will throw lots of sparks, cast iron will not.

If you are using a regular welding rod for steel and the yoke is cast, even though it looks welded, the weld will not alloy with the cast iron and will eventually break free from the part.

Just my two cents. Others may not agree.

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rokon2813
Originally posted by JoggerFogger
quote:
Thanks for all your help!-Kevin
id="quote">id="quote">Just curious Have you checked ebay?I don't want to advertise here, but you might start with the link in my signature ;);)

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