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makeitfit

416S slips in higher gears

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makeitfit

Hi, first post here.

I've owned this machine for three years now and have fought with belt slippage since day one. (It was the reason the last owner dumped it for free).

Its got a strong running 16hp motor that was just overhauled before the last owner gave up and gave it to me.

The issue is that the primary belt slips under load in all but first gear. The belt on it when I got it was a 4L530 fractional HP belt.

Reverse works fine and never slips in any range.

The belt is slipping at the BGB pulley.

All bolts are tight, I've swapped out every pulley on this thing, plus changed both rear frame halves due to a worn tensioner pivot pin and some oblonged shaft holes. Everything is nice and tight now.

I use this solely for plowing a garden and pushing snow, so when it works, its working all out all the time.

In first gear, it'll move a house.

Today I gave it another shot, I've got 7 belts here, including two original belts off parts machines I bought over the winter. All are 4L530 belts but their width varies by brand. The narrowest is 0.43", the widest is 0.50" wide. All are deeper and narrower on the pulley side than the one original belt I have.

I've even tried rimming on a 49-50" belt without the tensioner to see if I could stop the slippage, and even like that it'll still slip in 4th. With a chain around a stump, and no rider, it slips the instant I push the lever up, the belt jumps, squeals, and smokes right away.

If just driving unloaded, 4th gear is fine. With the short belt on it, it'll pull in 2nd and 3rd gear. I finally tried a shorter 4L520 belt that still allows clutch movement but gives more wrap on the BGB pulley and it works in 2nd, slips under hard load in 3rd and slips under any load in 4th. With no rider, chained to stump in loose gravel it won't even spin a wheel when it slips.

The belt don't seem super tight to me, its never more than snug, which is why I tried the smaller belt since the tensioner is nearly maxed out with the stock belt.

I should also say I've got 7 410/416S parts machines to pull from, so spare parts is not an issue. Including one that looks new that a tree fell on when it was near new.

I've also got a 3410S that mows grass, that will slip too but the pulleys are different than on the 400 models. I thought at first the pulleys may have been worn, so I changed them all out for a clean set, no change. The trans works fine if just riding around or pulling a light cart, but it won't pull a plow or push snow unless its in super slow first gear. The issue is the belt is bottoming in the pulleys, the belt don't match the shape or degree of cut very well either.

On my other brand tractors, a few completely belt driven, they will wheelie or spin tires regardless of the surface when pulling hard, yet the 416S slips.

I have three factory manuals here, I've been through all the adjustments with no luck.

With the shorter belt on it, it also creeps in forward regardless how much I try to fudge the adjustment to stop it. At this point every least part has been swapped out, the entire rear end, BGB back has been changed around twice. I'm at the point where I'm ready to just swap in a three speed and forget about the shuttle but I'm not sure that would work either now. With the seat pan lifted, tractor chained to a stump on loose gravel, pushing the lever forward in higher gears it just sits and slips, the BGB pulley is spinning yet the belt sits still. If I push down a bit on the belt it grabs a bit, if I push more tension against the tensioner it does nothing. I can see inside corner wear on the belts, it burns up a belt in minutes.

A 5/8" belt don't fit, it won't clear the belt guides.

With the 52" belt on it, the belt squeals every time I release the clutch, but it does grab, just not in 4th. I've changed out the trans to a known good unit so I've eliminated that.

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littlemarv

Welcome..... this is your best resource for these tractors by far.

From reading your post, even though I've never seen a shuttle setup, two things jump out at me right off the bat...

1. The belt is bottoming in the pulley? That should never happen. The angled sides of the belt are what do the actual driving. Sounds like your belt is a size too narrow, and running on the flat inside surface.

2.A 5/8 belt won't clear the guides? Are the guides adjustable? Most tractors that I've monkeyed with have 5/8" belts.

Something to think about untill someone who has one speaks up.

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makeitfit

The 4L530 (1/2" x 53" long) belt is what the owners manual or parts list calls for. They spec out the same belt on both the Simplicity and AC shuttle drive models.

A 5/8" belt is way too big, it rides atop the pulley groove with nearly 1/3rd of the belt being above the pulley. All the pulleys have guides or guards around them that ride super close so that when the belt is declutched, it can't run off the pulleys.

There seems to be a big difference between the belts bought these days and the belts that came on these. There's a definite difference in profile.

The belt on the left is an original belt off a Simplicity 3410S, the one on the right came from a low hours 410S I bought for parts.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/2jg5wjt.jpg

http://oi45.tinypic.com/sgk3sw.jpg

The belt off the original 410S worked but broke after only a few rows in the garden. You can see the difference in the depth and shape of the belt. The narrow type belts bottom in the pulleys. The belt itself is deeper therefore narrower on the inside.

The bad part is the thing is basically the most drivable with the 53" belt but it slips under load. The part I really don't get is that it don't seem to slip in reverse. I did try a new spring on the left side arm, but that did little for it.

I plan to try to finish plowing with the short belt for now and see if it'll do it in 2nd gear, it'll either burn up the new belt or just slip.

I've seriously considered a straight three speed swap out of a 410 parts tractor I've got.

This is my first AC/Simplicity that's not a hydrostatic drive, my 7119 pulls like an ox but I figured the 416S would be a tougher set up for the type of work I do with it. The 7119 don't have a rear lift on it yet. While I prefer the hydraulic lift, I'd like to make that machine my dedicated snow machine and keep the 416S set up to plow the garden. My 3410S cuts my grass, its never had to work that hard. I've never had the 3410S slip but its also got plain turf tires and no weight, and a lot less power.

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makeitfit

The only belt that did half decent so far was an old original belt, it was the one that measured the widest. The new belts are all narrower and deeper. So far I've gone to Napa, Tractor Supply, several auto parts stores, and a handful of local bearing/belt suppliers and no one has a belt that matches the original. I have no local dealer.

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makeitfit

The belts I've been getting, all exept the one from TSC have been marked A51/4L530 on the sleeve, I was assuming it was just another numbering system?

The 52" belt on it now however was marked only A50, it still slips in high gear. So much so that it won't climb my 6" ramp onto my landscape style trailer in anything but low gear. It'll back up the ramp in any gear. It never slips on the rear pulley, just the BGB pulley.

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sammiefish
quote:Originally posted by makeitfit

The belts I've been getting, all exept the one from TSC have been marked A51/4L530 on the sleeve, I was assuming it was just another numbering system?The 52" belt on it now however was marked only A50, it still slips in high gear. So much so that it won't climb my 6" ramp onto my landscape style trailer in anything but low gear. It'll back up the ramp in any gear. It never slips on the rear pulley, just the BGB pulley.


id="quote">
id="quote">the fact that you can back up but not go forward as well is sorta implying to me there may be more of an adjustment issue than a belt issue... hmmmm.. my 416S has slippage in reverse but not fwd... from what Ive read (and i try to read alot of this stuff) adjustment can be difficult to dial in and can also be related to wear... I dont remember if you said it already, have you removed the planetary and re-packed it, or inspected for wear there?

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Marty-MN

I have had to replace the drive pulley one some of the pumps where I work because the belts were dying in less than a year and seamed to be slipping. the new drive pulley solved the problem even tho they looked good on the motor when I got them where You could see them better they were polished quite badly. they also were 1940's vintage and run 24/7

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BLT

A 4L530 and an A51 belt while nominal belt lengths are the same, they are not of the same construction regardless of what TSC has labeled. The belt angles and thickness are different and where close really counts the 4L530 will bottom out in the pulley groove causing slippage.

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PhanDad

I had a S/G with the same issue. The cast pulley sides had worn and the belt was bottoming out in the pulley.

Besides using the correct shaped belt, have you tried a different drive pulley on the BGB? The one you're using may be worn.

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makeitfit

I've got 7 parts machines here all with Shuttle drives, I've swapped out the transaxle, the BGB and pulley, both frame side plates, and the tensioner. Its gotten better but it'll still slip under hard load in high gear. I can't imagine it having so much traction that it will slip the belt before spinning a wheel in loose dirt or gravel.

I even thought about the fact that it may be a frame twist issue or something going on but I see no movement anywhere.

I can run this with the seat up and watch belt stand still and the BGB pulley just slips. The belt never seems to have enough tension on it, I put a super duty spring on the clutch arm on the left, but there's so much linkage between the arm and the belt tensioner that it loses tension in the transition. Even with the too short belt installed, I can run my hand between the belt and tensioner pretty easily. If I apply more pressure with a broom stick to the tensioner arm while its slipping, it starts to grab but by that time the belt is burnt or torn up from being forced into the groove so hard.

One issue seems to be that there's so little of the belt in contact with the BGB pulley with the correct, 53" belt. Less than 1/3 of the pulley contacts the belt, about half the pulley contacts the belt with the shorter belt.

My only other working shuttle is a 3410S with just a mower on it, but that model is a bit different, the linkage is different and the pulleys are different. The 416S calls for a 2029350 belt which cross references to a 4L530, which don't look or match the original in profile or shape. The A51 looks identical. The original belt from 1974 is obviously wider and flatter with less 'V' shape to it. The sides have a different angle and the face of the belt which goes into the pulley is wider. There's almost a 1/16" of an inch difference in overall thickness. Its marked 2029350 right on the belt. Yet when I go to the dealer, 2 hours from here, they give me a generic branded belt off the rack.

I have little doubt that a good original belt would solve the issue.

I was at Tractor Supply the other day and saw they carry Cub Cadet branded belts as well, those have the correct profile but none were short enough. The belts they sell by measured size vs. application are all made in India. They no longer carry a plain black belt either, their all Kevlar type belts.

The A50 belt I've got on it now has less cloth on the sides, which is probably why it squeals so much when it slips, the other belts don't squeal, they just slip and make a burning smell.

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MPH

I say call Brenda at SLI. She can explain the different belt widths well. It may all have to do with the angle of the belt as has been mentioned. Esp since you stated the new belts are narrower.

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rokon2813

After all that trouble, and this statement you made...

I have little doubt that a good original belt would solve the issue.

id="red">

I think I would just order an OEM Simplicity belt.

Your number, 2029350 is superceded by, 2174731SM $18.30 from simplcity

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MikeES

I did not know that the AC400 series shuttle was different than the Simplicity 3400/7000 series shuttle. I have the driven parts from a 410S and they are identical to my 3414S. My 3414S slipped in 4th when I bought it. New Fleet Farm belts and shuttle linkage setup...it does not slip.

Note make sure your neutral brake is not rubbing in forward, it can be tricky to set up.

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HubbardRA

The shuttle on my 713S will slip under a heavy load. It appears that that will always happen at heavy loads, since that is just a transport gear and not really designed for heavy work. Mine will slip a little when I first release the clutch, or push the lever into forward. It stops slipping relatively quickly. I thought it may stop slipping if I put a new Simplicity belt on it, but since it does everything I need with the existing belt, I just haven't ordered one yet. Oh, just to let you know, I have been running this belt setup for about 5 years with no real problems

If I need to tow anything with a garden tractor, I will use either my AC716H or my 61 Wards with 3 speed. I never intended to do any towing with a Shuttle myself.

One other thing that I just remembered. On my 3-speed, there were two different holes in the arm that the belt tensioner is on. When I got it the belt slipped under heavy loads in second and third. I was messing with it one day and noticed the second hole farther out on the arm. I moved the pulley to that one and never had a slippage problem after that. You may want to check to see if there is another hole in the arm to mount the tensioner in.

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makeitfit

There is no local Simplicity dealer, the only sort of local dealer is an Agco dealer, who sold this thing originally. They don't stock OEM belts, they keep some odd brand belt assortment in stock.

I did mail order one, but it too was just a repackaged generic belt.

I find it hard to believe that the belt was ever a special one of style belt. The original belt off the 410S I have for parts has the original part number from Simplicity on the belt, and "4L530" right next to it.

I figured that by going to a Gates belt I would have eliminated all the variable sizes but they too seem to have changed. I ran into the same issue with an old table saw, the original belt from the late 50's was wider and flatter, but the new belt looked like a fabric covered automotive belt. Who ever is making the Cub Cadet branded belts at TSC has the profile like the original Simplicity belt, but they don't sell those by length, only application or deck size.

I measured every one and none were short enough. The original belt measured 0.51" wide, none of the newer belts other than one Mitsuboshi belt is wider than 0.48". It don't sound like much but it seems to matter. The fact that with the 53" belt, there's so little belt wrap around the BGB pulley don't help either.

For comparison purposes, I tested at what point my 3410S with the deck on it would slip, it too will slip in third, but in all other gears it'll rear up or spin a tire.

I use the 416S to plow a rather large garden, almost an acre, I wanted to make the 416S my ground working machine so I didn't tear up my 7119H. The 7119H will rear up and never slip its belt, I think the driveshaft coupler or axles would break before it slipped the belt. I had to use that to move my 6 ton trailer with a loader on it last year. I sat the pintle ring down over the 1 7/8" ball I've got on the back and tossed a few sand bags on the hood for ballast and moved the trailer out of the soft dirt where it was parked and out to the street. It did the task just fine, although it took full throttle and all it had, it moved it without an issue. The 416S wouldn't budge that trailer, the belt would burn up even in low gear.

Right now with the shorter A50 belt on it the thing will plow in second gear, but stops moving if I hit hard ground. It won't move my Brinly plow in 3rd or 4th. I don't much care about 4th gear, its way too fast anyhow, but I feel it should be able to move through soft soil in third. When I used the 7119H, I could basically blast full speed though most of the already broken ground I plant, that was with no weight, turf tires and chains. The 416S has filled ags, and a single 50lb weight on the left wheel to counterbalance it a bit while plowing.

I've seriously thought about just swapping in a straight three speed but I don't think the clutch and belt are any different in that set up, but the belt does get more wrap around the BGB pulley.

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RickS

Joe,

Simplicity belts are constructed differently than most other belts. If you have adjusted the shuttle correctly and it still slips with an aftermarket belt order one from SLI as Marty and Dan suggested. Even though the belt number maybe the same, the makeup of the belt can and will be different.

Before you make the swap to a three speed try a Simplicity belt.

Rick........

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HubbardRA

I can tell you for sure that a 3-speed with a green Gates belt and the idler, guides, and springs, set up correctly will not slip in any gear with any load on it. After 20 years of tractor pulling with a 3-speed, I know the load will kill an 18+ Hp engine and never slip the drive belt.

I can also say that once a drive belt is burned by slipping under heavy load, then it will always slip. Learned that from pulling. I always kept new spare belts with me when pulling for that reason. Once the sides of the belt were burned from slippage, I could never get them to hold like a new one again. I would use them at home on a mower, but they were no good for pulling heavy loads.

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makeitfit

I'll see about ordering a Simplicity belt online.

I tried rigging it today with no tensioner, just a straight belt and even like that with the widest 1/2" belt I could rim on the pulleys it still slipped in 3rd and 4th gear. In first gear it would pull the plow through virgin ground, but in second it would slow down and eventually stop, I could lift the seat and watch the BGB pulley rotating in the belt, the rimmed on belt was tight as a piano string yet it still slipped. Its bottoming in the pulley groove just slightly.

After about 18 or so 300' rows through the garden it wouldn't move at all. The belt was still super tight but would not get any grip on the BGB pulley.

Something I notice after taking a really close look at both the 3speed set up and this shuttle drive trans is that the BGB pulleys are different, the pulley off any of the 7 shuttle equipped parts tractors is wider than that of a plain 3 speed or even a 6 speed.

I have a super clean 3 speed 410 parts tractor here that's just sitting, the front end is shot and the motor is gone so it'll make a perfect donor machine.

Is the shuttle set up really rated for doing this type of work? My 3410S seems fine for mowing, but I've never worked it real hard. The guy who owned this 416 before only towed a wagon with it and ran a mid grader blade.

Is the three speed or hydro a better set up for plowing a garden?

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RickS

Joe,

What is your objection to ordering a new Simplicity belt? This would be easier and faster than converting the tractor to a three speed or a hydro. And even if you convert it you will still need to order a new belt.

Rick.....

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CooterDavenport

I have a 416S with simplicity belts that are at least 6 years old. I just finished plowing my garden expansion in 2nd gear through HARD packed soil and my buddies place where he put in three smaller gardens. The only issues I had were loosing traction a few times, and when I snagged a coulple rocks and a root or two the front end came up a bit. I pull trailer loads of wood in 3rd uphill a couple times a week over the winter with no slipping. If every thing is adjusted right I would think it's gotta be a pulley or belt issue. I would try getting a simplicity belt before I gave up on the shuttle. just my opinion

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makeitfit

I don't have a local Simplicity dealer, just an Agco/Allis/MF dealer about an hour away. The last Simplicity dealer went away years ago.

I have a handful of used original belts, they're marked with both the Simplicity number and 4L530, they all slip. If I had a local dealer I'd have probably just ordered a new BGB pulley rather than buying a truck load of parts machines.

The one 410S I parted out was minty clean but someone cut the shaft that holds the lift lever off and it was missing the rear lift set up.

It came to me with a 10hp Kohler in it. It would cut grass fine and pull a wagon but I never tried plowing with it. I basically took its complete rear end and put it to my 416S, belt, BGB, and rear frame complete. It made zero difference. My 7119 will flip over backwards if it gets hung up, yet none of these shuttle drives have that kind of hold.

What I can't get past, before driving 2 hours to the closest Simplicity dealer, is why on earth the belts bottom in the pulleys?

The pulleys aren't worn, and they all can't be worn exactly the same if they are. The BGB pulley on the AC shuttle is different than that on the Simplicity, its wider by quite a bit and the belt can't bottom in the pulley. My 3410S has all original belts on it.

There's also the issue of no belt tension, but the 3410S don't have much either. I can pass my hand easily between the tensioner pulley and belt, I can lift the belt off the rear pulley with two fingers, and this is with a super strong spring added. With the stock spring, I there's almost no tension at all.

Here's a shot of it in Forward with the A50 belt on it.

http://oi37.tinypic.com/2wrkvp0.jpg

As it sits here it won't move at all in high gear, the belt totally slips. If I push it to get it going it'll move around till it hits an incline. In 3rd, it'll move ok but not under any heavy load, it'll pull the plow in 1st or 2nd.

The belt is new, the pulley is clean, dry and shows no wear. This is the widest belt I could find made by Mitsuboshi.

The tension spring from the clutch lever to the frame pin is twice the normal tension yet it loses so much by the time it gets over to the idler arm. Its as if there should be another tension spring on the right side. I swapped in linkage with nearly no play in it, picked the best pieces out of all the machines I've got here but it still don't give that belt much tension.

I don't want to buy another $28 belt if in the end I still end up swapping in a 3 speed.

How much tension should the belt have? Right now I've got very little in my opinion. The shorter belt is tight when applied.

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