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roonfry

3416H Differential Woes

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roonfry

Noticed a problem with my 3416H when turning, one wheel seemed to be dragging. So I pulled off the differential, cleaned and all looks fine. Pinion gears show a little wear, but nothing major, the springs have some wear on the ends I don't know if this typical or not. My real problem is that when I put it back together, it does not seem to want to work. Everything looks fine, but just won't turn the outer pinion gears. When I have just the inner pinion gears in, I put in the drive gear everything turns fine. Then when I compress the springs to engage the second (outer) set of pinion gears, I can't turn it even with a cheater bar.

Does anybody have any insight? I am going to tear it apart again this weekend, degrease and all that fun stuff, but I am stumped as to why it is not turning.

I have a couple follow up questions, but they don't matter till I get this thing working.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

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OrangeMetalGuy

Did you actually disassemble the differential or just remove it intact?

I think it's not installed right, so when you then insert the differential gear the teeth are meshing with the inside gears - hence gear lock.

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roonfry

Yes I did totally remove the differential. Totally disassembled cleaned and put back together. What I am seeing is that when I compress the differential, the inside and outside pinion gears engage by about an inch, I think this is correct. When I put the assembly back on the axel, the inside pinion gear engages the drive sprocket on the axel, all the time and the outside pinion gear engages the right wheel sprocket all the time. This double engagement is one of my major concerns.

quote:Originally posted by OrangeMetalGuy

Did you actually disassemble the differential or just remove it intact?I think it's not installed right, so when you then insert the differential gear the teeth are meshing with the inside gears - hence gear lock.


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roonfry

Thanks, I have the manual, paper copy. It is nice to have an electronic copy.

quote:Originally posted by RayS

Here`s the repair manual. Just click on the blue line for the section you need. You can also download each section.http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/default.aspx?filename=ifDDFO9jwJ9iGclRzOfEP5NRQpe


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sammiefish

I did an axle tube a couple years ago and tore down the diff at that time. the washer/s inside the diff position the gear so as not to engage all the time. Mine had 3 washers in originally. The consensus was that a single internal washer would position the gear so as not to engage all the time. Im not sure this is your issue but maybe this old post may help. Sorry for the first 2 pics... apparently I put up pics with the same name...

http://simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=112411&SearchTerms=differential

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roonfry

Chris, Thanks a bunch! My drive gear is on backwards. Today I totally tore down the differential unit again, degrease and all. Flipped the drive gear but I am still concerned about the spacers. I think I am going to see if I can find a couple extra spacers and install as shown in the manual. Still concerned that I can't turn the entire unit by hand when assembled, but I am not a 16 HP Briggs. Hopefully the gear is my big problem. Still working through this issue. Thanks for all your help.Doug

quote:Originally posted by RayS

DSCF1349.jpg

DSCF1351.jpg

DSCF1352.jpg

Make sure the gear is on the axle like in the pictures. If turned around it would be engaged or locked all the time.


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HubbardRA

The differential becomes locked any time that one of the gears (most times it is the one on the axle) becomes engaged with planetary gears on both sides. This can be done deliberately by turning the gear around that Ray shows in his pictures. You want the gear portion of that gear toward the tranny and the spacer portion toward the gear on the hub. You only want one washer on the backside of that gear and all of the other washers between that gear and the one on the hub. This should keep the gears from locking and let the diff work properly.

I put one together according to the manual and it was locked. I moved some washers and unlocked it.

Also make sure the collars are tight on the axle and there is no side-to-side motion of the axle and wheels. Too much clearance will allow the axle gears to move within the differential.

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roonfry

Thanks Rod, You bring up a good point. I notice when I dry fit everything together I get about a half inch play between the axle gear and the snap ring. I am guessing I have to push the axle all the way the right so the axle gear is close to tight against the snap ring on the axle. At least I think this is what you are talking about.Thanks,Doug

quote:Originally posted by HubbardRA

The differential becomes locked any time that one of the gears (most times it is the one on the axle) becomes engaged with planetary gears on both sides. This can be done deliberately by turning the gear around that Ray shows in his pictures. You want the gear portion of that gear toward the tranny and the spacer portion toward the gear on the hub. You only want one washer on the backside of that gear and all of the other washers between that gear and the one on the hub. This should keep the gears from locking and let the diff work properly.I put one together according to the manual and it was locked. I moved some washers and unlocked it.Also make sure the collars are tight on the axle and there is no side-to-side motion of the axle and wheels. Too much clearance will allow the axle gears to move within the differential.


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roonfry

Correct, so my plan is to install one spacer on the transmission side of the axle gear and one on the wheel side of the axel gear, hopefully this will get my spacing set up correctly. Then I am going to loosen the axel collar on the non-differential side and shove the axel till the axle drive gear is almost touching the snap ring. I believe this will fix this problem. The last question is then how is the limited slip ever going to engage? If the axle drive gear is slid to the snap ring, how will it ever engage the pinion? Don't exactly know the answers, but this is what I am going to try, hopefully on Sunday, if not maybe Monday.Doug

quote:Originally posted by ReedS

Check your axle collar on the right side of the transmission, it may have slipped out of it's proper position allowing all that play!


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ReedS
quote:Correct, so my plan is to install one spacer on the transmission side of the axle gear and one on the wheel side of the axel gear, hopefully this will get my spacing set up correctly. Then I am going to loosen the axel collar on the non-differential side and shove the axel till the axle drive gear is almost touching the snap ring. I believe this will fix this problem. The last question is then how is the limited slip ever going to engage? If the axle drive gear is slid to the snap ring, how will it ever engage the pinion? Don't exactly know the answers, but this is what I am going to try, hopefully on Sunday, if not maybe Monday.

Doug


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That sounds right, one of your washers should have a relief in it to sit over the snap ring. If you look at the diff pinions you'll note that half of the engage the hub gear and the other half engage the axle gear. Late model differentials are spring controlled, meaning there is a spring on the pinion shaft that will allow slippage after the spring tension is over come. Spring tension can be increased by adding another washer between the spring and the differential housing thereby increasing spring tension and consequently less slip.

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HubbardRA

Go to the left side ( non-diff side). Loosen the collar and pull the axle toward the left as far as it will come, then push the collar against the tranny and tighten the set screws. This way the axle cannot slide to the right and push the gear over till it intersects both sets of spider gears.

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roonfry

Weeeee, I feel like a NASCAR drive, go straight, turn left, go straight, turn left, etc. Put everything back together and seems to be working. The northern Ohio monsoon season did not let me actually take it outside and drive it, but at least I can push inside the barn and turn, couldn't do that before. I hope it is fixed.

Thanks everyone for the help. I think the big problem was the axle gear was on backwards and the spacers wrong. But at least now I have a rebuilt differential. I don't think I could have done it without everyone's help.

Again, THANKS!

Doug

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roonfry

Great, Tested today actually driving with the motor, ran and turned great. So I think the differential is fixed.

Again thanks to everyone for the help.

Doug

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