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StvKB

Need wiring help for 7116 repower

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StvKB

Purchased a Briggs Vanguard V-twin 18HP engine model 356447-3079–G1 and installed it in my Simplicity 7116 tractor. My problem is that I need power to one of the wires when the ignition switch is in the "run" and also in the "start" position AND also be OFF when in the "off" position. Did a search for a wiring diagram and found 1 on this site- the only good one I found. New to site so I don't know how to post pictures but here is the link to the diagram I found on this site, much appreciated.

http://simpletractors.com/Club2/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=110602

Not sure if above will work, but the topic was "simplicity 7116 electric schematic"

I tried running a wire from the B circuit between the ignition switch and ammeter. That worked well enough to start the engine. After the tractor sat a few days, the battery was dead. Investigation revealed that power was still on in the "off" switch position. Electrical wiring is my weak suit and any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks In advance, Steve

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PhanDad

I sounds like your new engine has a battery powered coil (or maybe electronic ignition) if it needs +12v to start and run. I'm surprised since "new" Kohler engine (Command) has a magneto now. Anyway, you need an ignition switch for the old Kohlers with battery ignition. Those ignition switches provide +12v in both the start and run postions and no voltage in the "off" position. The post you referenced has my marked up magneto schematic. Here's the companion marked up schematic for the battery ignition Kohler:

16GTHL_Wire7117.jpg

Ignore my hand written notes. They are how I reused and patched my 17GTH-L wiring harness when I switched to a Briggs. I did purchase a "Briggs" style ignition switch for the conversion.

16GTHL_Wire7117.jpg.c2324dc765356f82e33949e5801e592e.jpg

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BLT

Have you got a product number? It should be on lower LH frame rail starting with 169XXXX along with a serial number. Does your current engine have a voltage regulator and do you have a carb solenoid wire?

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StvKB

BLT, the simplicity model # is 1690477. I have a parts manual, but dont know how to insert the page that shows the wiring harness onto this site. Thanks, Steve

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StvKB

BLT, I think I have a voltage regulator. There is a wire coming off the new engine voltage regulator that I connected to the existing tractor side wiring that used to go to the old L head briggs regulator. I'm not sure if it has one, but if there is a carb solenoid wire it is already attached to something and not hanging loose.

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BLT

You have an "A" terminal that goes to the terminal strip. Does that have power in the Start and Run position on the key switch. According to parts book you have a fuel shutoff solenoid. And lastly did the engine come with some connection diagrams?

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StvKB

I bought the engine from small engine warehouse because they are located about 60 miles from me.

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/356447-SIM7116-1R1.html?sc=17&category=1710235

When I got home and opened up the box it came in, there was a 6 page booklet titled Conversion Kit Instructions (Set BH1) Simplicity 7116 Briggs & Stratton Engine Conversion Kit

It got around to talking about wiring on page 5. It said to plug in the clutch wiring connector. I don't have one. It said if their plug didn't work, my tractor had been modified from its original configuration. IT HAD NOT BEEN MODIFIED. NOTHING IT SAID TO DO HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY 7116. So I called tech support and they took down my wiring problem and assigned me a case #. Got an email from their tech who labeled himself a Master Service Technician. Told me " the Red wire will need 12 volt with the key switch in run & crank positions and the Purple wire is the battery charge (+)" Purple wire is no problem as it went to the wire that went to the old engine regulator. New regulator wire to old regulator wire.

I emailed back I needed to know where to get 12V power in run and start positions. I attached the wiring harness picture from the parts book. He informed me that the part pic wasn't what he wanted, he needed a schematic. So that is when I searched for a schematic and found this website. So i sent that to him, we emailed back and forth regarding various wiring issues. His last response was I needed to get local help to fix the wiring issue. It is obvious to me they have never done a Briggs Vanguard conversion into a 7116 and know how to do the wiring. Beware of buying from Small Engines Warehouse in Dunkirk Indiana. Tech support may or may not be able to help you. The tech support I got didn't resolve the issue. The paperwork telling you how to complete the repower may or may not apply to your tractor. My paperwork did not. Beware!

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BLT

In here is wiring diagram for 1690477 tractor.

http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/default.aspx?filename=ifDDFO9jwJ9iGclRzOfEP5NRQpe

Go to section 3, page 3-25. Upper diagram is for your tractor. Ask your tech for an E-mailable wire diagram and what function is purple wire. It appearss that you have correct ignition switch. I compared it to a newer product number tractor (1691382) and it carries same P/N (178280).

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Gordan

There isn't a fuel shutoff solenoid on a 7116, at least not on mine. This is a little tricky because there's no contact on the switch that's on both during start and during run. You'd have to get a Sovereign series switch in order to do that, and then you could just branch the fuel solenoid wire off of the battery side of the light switch. Of course, changing over to a Sovereign style switch could be a bit of work.

Two alternatives: put in a separate switch just for the solenoid, bypassing the ignition switch; and feed the fuel solenoid from BOTH light switch and starter solenoid output (but use diodes to prevent flow between the two sides.)

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Ronald Hribar

use the wiring schematic for a 7116 Briggs 16

the gear start motor uses same regulator on motor as the vanguard does

at least both my vertical shaft and horizontal shaft 23 hp Vanguards have regulator mounted on motor. It is the red wire that comes from motor. The black wire is the magneto kill wire just like the single 16 Briggs I am checking where the white and green wire go to

one is for oil pressure shut off and other is for fuel solenoid that you should have

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PhanDad

BLT,Usually I fully understand your posts, especially about electrical matters. This is one case where I don't understand your advice.stvKB states in his original post: "My problem is that I need power to one of the wires when the ignition switch is in the "run" and also in the "start" position AND also be OFF when in the "off" position." The OEM ignition switch for any old single cylinder Briggs doesn't have a switch position that does this, regardless of the vintage or other wiring complications (safety switches, interlock modules, etc). The "Kohler" ignition switch shown in the wiring diagram above (for a battery ignition system) does what stvKB wants.Now if what he asked for is different from what he really needs, then all bets are off. I'm not familiar with the wiring for the new Briggs Vanguard engines. For referenece in this post, here's the wiring diagram he refers to in his original post:

16GTHL_Wire7116a.jpg

The switch functions are identical to the wiring diagram you referenced in your post (note in that wiring diagram, there is a "typo" in the switch functionality table, the "on" function lists an "L" terminal, which is not shown in the schematic, it should be the "A" terminal). The Simplicity part number for the "Kohler" ignition switch (used in a 7117:is 1607280.

16GTHL_Wire7116a.jpg.d4024ffcc9338c0495dfb7d46df32aeb.jpg

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Gordan

A normally closed relay between ground and magneto, powered from the ignition terminal, would do it. That way, when the ignition terminal is energized, the fuel solenoid would open and the relay would open (disconnecting ground from magneto.)

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PhanDad

Bob,

Is that a trick question?

With an old Kohler, when the ignition switch is "off", there's "nothing" ("none" in functionality table above) to the ignition terminal (I), so no +12v, the engine loses its spark and stops.

With an old Briggs, when the ignition switch is "off", the ignition terminal (M) is grounded ("G" in the Briggs functionalilty table above) killing the engine's magneto spark and the engine stops.

I know you know this. Where are we miscommunicating in trying to help stvKB? I am assuming that with stvKB's new Vanguard, the engine will stop when the +12v is removed, hence the need for a "Kohler" type switch. But, like I said, I don't know about the wiring requirements for that engine and maybe what I stated won't be enough.

Is the new Briggs Vanguard like the Kohler Command where you need both an ungrounded magneto circuit AND a +12v circuit to open a carb fuel solenoid in both the "run" and "start" conditions? Then the ignition switch (Simplicity part number 1686637) used with the Commands should be used. To me, that switch is a mix of the old ignition switches where the "off" and "run" positions are like the Briggs but the "start" position is like the Kohler. Of course intermediate relays could always be used to make any igition swtich work with any engine, but, IMO,that makes for messy wiring.

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BLT
quote:Originally posted by PhanDad

Bob,Is that a trick question? Is the new Briggs Vanguard like the Kohler Command where you need both an ungrounded magneto circuit AND a +12v circuit to open a carb fuel solenoid in both the "run" and "start" conditions? Then the ignition switch (Simplicity part number 1686637) used with the Commands should be used. To me, that switch is a mix of the old ignition switches where the "off" and "run" positions are like the Briggs but the "start" position is like the Kohler. Of course intermediate relays could always be used to make any igition swtich work with any engine, but, IMO,that makes for messy wiring.


id="quote">
id="quote">Bill no trick question was intended. ;)Now you and I are same wave length.dOd I also wonder if Briggs requires fuel solenoid to stay energized until "killed" engine voltage drops away to close it like Kohler did with the Triad.

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StvKB

Thanks for the replies. The "A" terminal only has power in the run position. The purple wire goes to the regulator. It is purple because Small Engine Warehouse (SEW) used that color for some reason on a adapter plug that came with it. I cut it out of the adapter plug because at the time I needed the round type terminal on it. After reading all of this, I wonder if the conversion kit from SEW was written to replace a Kohler engine. Also the black kill wire that went to the old points box area on the old L head engine now goes to a stud on the new vanguard and effectively kills the engine when the key is turned off. The SEW tech did not know this either. I was able to talk to briggs vanguard tech support today and he basicly said the same idea you guys have, that a different ignition switch will fix my problem. He was supposed to email me some ignition switch info, but I never received it. He did mention a part number for the switch he recommended, B & S 692318. I don't know which one I should go with. Will my existing wiring harness plug directly into any of the switches? I am hoping to post some pictures tommorow to make things somewhat clearer. Thanks, Steve

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StvKB

IMG_0485ccc.jpg

The wire on the bottom is the wire I need power to in Run and start positions and also to be off when the key is off. If I leave it connected it drains the battery because it is still on. When connected, I can start and run the engine. Is this the fuel solenoid wire? Something clicks when I connect it as it has power all the time at present. The black wire connected to the kill stud is the kill wire.

IMG_0485ccc.jpg.96556fac025f5382c298f8aa2ffcc116.jpg

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StvKB

It needs power in both the start and run positions and be off when key is in off position. The terminal strip only has power in run position. I need a 6 pole key switch.

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BLT

There is a five terminal switch that would do the job, 1716330. It is used on the later Sovereigns, such as product number 1692550. You would have to re-pin your plug to match the new switch. The terminals in the plug real easy. You can make a removal tool by squaring off a small screw driver.

You also try tying in the starter wire with terminal A. The solenoid would on when start engines and off momentarily until key switch springs back to run position. I don't if that would be quick enough to let the engine keep reunning, but worth a try.

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John_in_Oxford

I don't understand what the problem still is. I posted the lnk to the B&S pdf that has the most common wiring scenarios, including the ones for the Vanguards, and even the B&S prt number for a CORRECT, WILL ABSOLUTELY WORK part number. It even includes the legend for which terminals make contact for a given key position.

Easy-peasy, no guess work required.

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BLT

Gordon, solenoid signal is continuous, I checked a similar circuit on a newer Regent that I have.

John the bulletin that you got from TEW is dated 2/98, 15 years old.

Is the the Briggs switch pin location compatible with the Simplicity plug and if not, does Briggs supply a stub plug/harness along with butt connectors so it can be tied in with the existing harness. Detail, detail.

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