Jump to content

Unofficial Home of Old Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden Tractors

fishnwiz

Rear Diff gears B10 & B12

Recommended Posts

fishnwiz

I am at a total loss on this one. I have a bad set of diff gears that came out of a 67 B10 tractor. I did NOT remove these gears myself so I am unsure of where these were originally located.I just recently purchased a used b10 axle in order to harvest the gears from the differential so I could use them in my B12. Well I pulled the diff. off of the axle I bought and did NOT find a set of matching gears to the bad set that I had for reference. I am now very confused as to what and where the gears that match the bad set I have are/ were located in the rearend? As you could have guessed...I know NOTHING about rear axle assemblies. Do I have the wrong rear diff? I tried to match the bad set of gears on a rear end diagram with no luck. Are the gears pictured below from the differential or are they from inside the gear case? What am I doing wrong? Thanks

IMG_4910.JPG

IMG_4910.JPG.f44f85414428f84f28fc09cefaa77d77.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rokon2813

They should be the same. It is possible someone upgraded one of them to a newer style.

Did either diff have springs in it??

I have never torn down a newer one with springs, so I can't say if those gears are different or not.

I have however torn down a dozen or so of the old style, from B1 on up through B12 and as far as I can remember they were all the same.

They sure look like diff gears, not inside the trans.

The one with the holes in it is the one attached to the hub with roll pins.

The others look like half of those inside the diff.

give me a couple minutes and I will come up with a picture

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rokon2813

There are 8 gears inside the diff. 4 will mesh with the big one with 6 holes, and the other 4. Those 4 will mesh with a larger one on the axle tube.

diff 005.jpg

diff 003.jpg

57e060986ae74_diff005.jpg.64bf64ff7c3860715f43b945de64078f.jpg

57e060987aa35_diff003.jpg.3f0a33308a50b81fe526d93dbcf5f1d8.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rokon2813

your gear with the holes in it is part of assembly 164214 so you can't really see it in the picture.All 8 internal gears in this pic are the same part number.To give you a little visual of how it goes together, all parts in assembly 157471 except hub T are in my second picture above.To avoid your confusion, bolts AH are in backwards in mine.

inside 990351 diff.gif

57e06098985a0_inside990351diff.gif.d22fadfbf010d88e347436a69b318db4.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Now that I cleaned out some of the grease I guess the gears are the same. I was looking for 3 gears total because thatvis what was removed by the previous owner. Is it possible for only a few gears to get chewed up and others to be ok?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Thanks to both for detailed pics. I was lost and now because of excellent pics, I am back on track.

What made this hard for me was my inexperience with tractor diffs and because I did not have the ability to learn as I go during the disassembly of the diff in the 1st place.

Thanks again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Well I have run into a roadblock again with this diff project. Dan, the top picture that you have in your post shows the larger hub gear attached via five roll pins. Ryans pics (Top of 1st pic) show the same gear with the roll pin holes mounted to the wheel hub! The replacement diff I bought does NOT have the same mount as the one in Dan's and Ryans pics. The hub material itself is thinner and does NOT have the locker bolts that are in the b12s hub. This b12 hub has two holes drilled in the collar of the hub (orig off of the b12) with wheel bolts threaded into them and appears to be some type of locker setup although the holes are NOT drilled all the way down to the axle tube?? Was this just a left over hub that was used at a later date by AC?

The gear on my replacement B10 hub has a smooth front on the gear with no holes visible from one side that the roll pins would insert into. How do you seperate the gear from the hub? Also, can I use the original B12hub with the B10 replacement diff as it seems the gear is the same size? I was just going to remove the bolts on the old damaged b12 diff and slide it off and replace it with the replacement b10 diff. Will these interchange?

I will post pics later when my camera gets home!

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rokon2813

I think they will interchange. However your new to you B10 diff is not stock to a B10. It should have had the traction bolts just like the b12.Those bolts tighten on a nylon bushing (25 foot pounds) around the axle shaft to give limited slip.I would bet that the diff that came with the B10 is a newer replacement, and has springs inside with the gears instead of spacers.Although I am still a bit confused, I thought all the spring loaded diffs had a hub with a longer center.You might need more help than I can give on this one. Need the pics.

3400 diff.gif

57e0609957d51_3400diff.gif.2b34dfb6a75b61cb96191fb54f6a2eab.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Thanks to everyone for all of your help thus far...if nothing else I am learning alot from you guys. Still waiting for my camera to get home.I am unsure on what year the parts diff is from. I should have pulled the hub BEFORE I paid for it but it was fairly inexpensive and I did get the luxury of learning while doing.Here are the pics of the replacement hub and diff. I do not see springs inside but I do see spacers. It is tough to see in the pics because of excessive grease.Note the fixed gear and NO pin holes! If I could get this gear off would I be able to use it on the B12 hub? Is it possible to remove the gear without a specialized tool?

IMG_5081.JPG

IMG_5082.JPG

IMG_5083.JPG

IMG_5081.JPG.69e17dd35976f2209e000e66a0efc1c6.JPG

IMG_5082.JPG.3207bd61027a7583c8daf32bc78f6fb9.JPG

IMG_5083.JPG.4b4a9140796ba8461c6092989967455a.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Just curios how hard it is to remove the gear from the hub, how it is done, and how tough to get it back onto the pins...anyone done this before?id="size1">

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rokon2813

LOL I'm done. As far as I can go with my expertise.

I have never seen that one. I would like to see the other side of that hub though.

I'm not sure about interchanging that one, you need either the springs or the traction bolts for the limited slip as far as I know.

My though would be, if it was working for the previous owner, unbolt the entire unit, bolt it to your tractor and go.

Even if you could get the gear off, I don't see how it would mount to the other hub without the roll pin holes. It is probably pressed on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Sorry to frustrate you. I really do appreciate all of your help with this issue. I will shoot a pic of the other side of the hub.Thanks again!Per your request, here is a look at the other side of the diff hub.

IMG_5084.JPG

IMG_5085.JPG

IMG_5084.JPG.4f04fb7f0623fabf6f58a69d2a23ea12.JPG

IMG_5085.JPG.71142e7760af69623519845549f572c7.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MikeES

The later wheel hubs had the gear welded to the wheel hub. You have the hub with gear that should work on your B12. The RBT tractors with the springs in the differential had a longer axle and hub that stuck out into the wheel to give better support for the differential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Thanks Mike

I would really like to use the old b12 hub as it is a little more on the heavy duty side. It appears to me that the locker portion of the b12 hub was not really in working order as there was no nylon insert or physical way for the bolts to touch the axle tube in any way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Well I put the new diff onto the b12 today. I had tractor all ready to go and reached down to put tractor in neutral and.......THE DAM THING IS STUCK IN GEAR! Sob!!sm00

Bummer....now I get to do the bent screwdriver trick which I have had ZERO success with!!:(!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Ok

When I jack up the tractor and spin the rear wheels one turns forward and one turns backward and shifter will not drop into postion for any of the gears. Am I stuck in reverse or ??

When I turn the drive pulley by hand with tractor jacked ...wheels do NOT spin?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lobsta1

I also had no luck with the bent screwdriver on my 710-6 that was stuck in reverse. Ended up taking some 1/4" rod & bending the end into a hook. The rod had enough flexibility for me to maneuver it & hook the shift fork.

Al

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

Thanks

I may have to try that...I cannot feel anything I can move with tje screwdriver. I spent 1 hr screwing around with it with NO LUCK#

Is the shift fork left or right or down from the access hole?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rokon2813
quote:Originally posted by fishnwiz

ThanksI may have to try that...I cannot feel anything I can move with tje screwdriver. I spent 1 hr screwing around with it with NO LUCK#Is the shift fork left or right or down from the access hole?


id="quote">
id="quote">I've never needed the "trick", but for perspective;There is a shift ball that extends straight down from your shifter handle. It slides with the shifter forward and backwards (neutral) into the shift forks.This is what the forks look like

shift forks 1.jpg

this is the notch the ball will slide into

shift forks 2.jpg

The ball will slide into these notches to move the forks sideways.One is in front of the shifter, the other is behind it. (the furthest ends of the neutral position)What happens is, through wear and abuse, one or the other of these is out of alignment, so the ball cannot slide into the notch to move the gears.What you need to do is get the ball in the centered position, then make sure the notches line up with the ball.Sometimes, the ball can also get bent or broken off.By your description, I'm not positive what your problem is. With the tractor jacked up, one wheel spinning in each direction is normal. That is the limited slip diff action.When you tried it, did the shifter not move, or did it not find any gears?If you let the clutch out with it stuck, and the engine stays running as if in neutral then it is stuck in neutral. If the engine stalls with no movement, then you are stuck between gears or in 2 gears.What you need to do with the screwdriver is get the 3 parts (forward notch, ball, rearward notch) lined up in a straight line. The 3 parts are only the same distance apart as the normal front to back motion of the shift lever.Start with the screw driver in the hole and wiggling the shift lever, to find with the screw driver the part that is wiggling inside to get your spacial orientation. Then go from there.

57e0609a5c646_shiftforks1.jpg.b6dbdd7ef3d65180efe2b6441379046c.jpg

57e0609a6eff3_shiftforks2.jpg.bb552f8f69491b213b890b45289770d9.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to help out. The shifter slides front to back but not into gear.

I guess that explains why the gears were out of the diff! I think I can see the ball on the shifter rod.

I tried with engine running...did not move forward or back? It seems to be in neutral but if it was, I should be able to move it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

I had a chance to get a better look inside with a different light. The shifter WAS between the forks as you stated. I think because this tractor was sitting since the mid 70s, the grease became rock hard. Idid manage to get one fork unstuck but the front fork is stuck in

gear away from me.. I can't pull the fork back toward me to line up with the shifter ball. I have tried to get it to move but the screwdriver does not do it.

Anybody have any other ideas on how to get a hold of the stuck shifter fork? I was thinking of drillng a hole on the opposite side of the gear case so I can get at the other side of the gear shift fork. I am leary about drill shavings dropping into the case if I do drill an access hole. Anyone ever try this idea?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

It's ALIVE!!

1ST running moving since 1974. WOW!

This tractor ended up being a real bear.The grease or rust on the shift forks was rock hard from sitting since 1974. Worked them a bit and finally got them to loosen up a bit.id="size1"> I cranked up the motor and put the tractor in gear...let out the clutch and with a jerk she raised the front tires off the ground and took off like a wild horse that had been penned up. Yee Haa C|:

This tractor was very satisfying to me because of the hours spent and all of the challenges along the way. I enjoy a good challenge!

Too bad all my labor will end up being free on this one!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fishnwiz

I just wanted to say a special "THANKS"to Dan for all the help and pics...without him I would of been totally lost!!

Thanks for all the valuable time you so generously donated to my cause Dan! dOd

Also forgot to ad Wayne and Ryan to my thank you list. Thanks for all of your tips pics and advise and encouragement from the sideline!

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Who's Online (See full list)

    • TommyK1
    • Paul M.Murphy
    • Sovereignm88
    • Ronald Hribar
    • CarlH
    • PhanDad
    • tripleguy
    • simplewrench
    • MercerRec
    • BLT
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Carchief
      Carchief
      (57 years old)
    2. Geoff
      Geoff
      (56 years old)
    3. mohrds
      mohrds
      (51 years old)
  • Recent Status Updates

    • SonOfCreepfeed

      SonOfCreepfeed

      Thinkin' about this old girl.

      · 2 replies
    • Dean McFadden

      Dean McFadden

      Good morning peeps! I’m always searching for helpful information with my AC collection. Hope to find out new information and pass on my own experience in restoration. Here are some pics of my babies. I’m still looking for front rims for the 410 so yesterday I put the 310 wheels on took it for a drive. Working pretty good but still needs some carb work. Gotta get the 310 running next. Have a great day!😁
       

      · 1 reply
  • Adverts

×