Smoke or Fire

[PatRarick 1]

There are persistent rumors of Simplicity being bought out by Electrolux, GE, MTD, etc. Is that just a rumor, or might it be in the works? One thing’s for sure, Simplicity has a tough road to hoe. New Simplicity products are not unique, and Simplicity does not have a presence in the Box Stores. Why would a consumer seek out a Simplicity dealer when similar machines such as Scotts (JD), Troy Bilt (MTD), Craftsman, etc. can be purchased most everywhere? I agree with Sam. The Sovereign was the only tractor that interested me. But, how many of those “old looking” dinosaurs did Simplicity sell at $6,000 a pop? Most people that I know only want to mow grass and maybe throw some snow. This ain’t the ‘50s. Home gardens are no longer popular. New homes probably don’t even have sufficient land for a garden, and wacky laws may even prohibit them. What do you think Simplicity could do to remain a strong player? How about: 1) a tractor to complete toe-to-toe with Kubota’s BX? 2) an innovative mower deck that would convert to a snowblower? 3) a hovercraft mower? 4) lasers instead of blades? 5) turbine instead of ICE? 6) chrome wheels standard equipment? Do you have any ideas?

[SmilinSam 4,245]

How about a tractor made to give away, for those who want something for nothing? Demand would be high.

[Guest]

I totally disagree with you, I think Simplicity is a very strong player. Have you looked at Legacys? Have you seen the new Prestige and Conquest tractors? I'll admit I'm biased, having been a Simp dealer for the past 20 years. As far as Simp not being in the box stores, I say thank God they're not. I'm also a John Deere dealer, and can absolutely tell you the only thing a Scotts shares with a John Deere is they are both made by the same company. You should see the number of service bulletions that come out on Scotts and Sabre tractors! Why would anyone want one of those pieces of s***? I guarantee there won't be any web sites devoted to Scotts tractors, except to moan about how bad they are.

[powermax_paul 1]

I don't know, but it seems the Case-IH dealers around here seem to sell more Simplicity's than they do Cub Cadets. Paul

[Woodydel 0]

Something like a transformer, tractor,atv and jet ski would be practical. Woody

[JohnN 0]

Well I can tell you if they were to reintroduce the B series I would be in line to order one... If I can afford the payments, to build a tractor like that nowadays would cost an arm and a leg. But, with lack of a lot of "safty" features I'm sure some moron would win a lawsuit because of his neglagence. Perhaps one could make a cheaper Terramite T5C competitor. As for advertisements, you could show a Simplicity chained to a craftsman pulling it around the yard till the rear tore out of the craftsman. If I had the money I'd buy a new craftsman and tear it apart with a Simplicity or AC just for the fun. Plain and simple, I'm a AC/Simplicity guy, even though the new series tractors don't appeal to me(price and looks). http://www.terramite.com/images/T5C_Price_Page.jpg

[powermax_paul 1]

I think if Simplicity re-introduced the Powermax in a weight class similar to the original and with say a 24 hp diesel and cat 1 3ph, they probably now could compete with the Yanmars (JD & IH?) and Kubota's. When the Powermax'es were introduced, I don't think the market was ready. It was probably 10 to 15 years too early for a tractor that size. Looking at Kubota, these big Simplicitys should have had cat 1 3ph and 540 pto's. The Legacy is undoubtedly a good strong machine, but not one a contractor could use every day nor one that will be around in 25 years like the Powermax is. In fact, I bet the Powermax tractors that are still in operation are getting harder service than the majority of them did when they were new. Paul

[StinKy 0]

It seems to me that the mindset of many homeowners these days leans toward "disposable" items lawn tractors included. Lets face it, we in this club are a small cross section of the overall tractor buying public. The average tractor customer is concerned with (1)the price (2)how do you start it (3)how do you stop it (4)where do you put the gas in. If they get 5 years out of a box cheapie they figure they've beat the odds and are ready to go out and grab another one. I might be wrong, but I dont think so. Dick

[BillC 0]

The average Joe Housewife is not mechanically inclined, therefore, the purchase of a self-propelled lawn mower is strictly based on dollars per horsepower. That is why there is a brand named "Yardman," because it makes Joe Housewife feel like a man. I have a 1961 Simplicity 725, considered the first Sovereign (which had payed for it's original used purchase price of $300 many times) and purchased a new Sovereign in 2000, one of the last. As long as I can to get repair parts it is the last garden tractor I will purchase period.

[PatRarick 1]

I think that Simplicity should have concentrated on improving the proven performer, the Sovreign. The BVB was one weak link in the more powerful models, but it was never really improved since it’s inception. I’m not sure if it began with the B-212, or later, but the cross shaft and bearings were made heavier, which may have helped some, but the gears were never touched other than to increase the bore to accept the larger shaft. Had the gearbox been beefed up, there is no reason that the Sovreign would not handle a 60” mower or a 48” snowblower. Another weak link was the axle tube. This could have been beefed up as well. Heavier, tapered spindles with hubs on the front axle, and it would have been even more indestructible than it already is. With these realtively small changes, there is no reason that the Sovreign could not handle all the attachments for the Legacy. I really don’t see the theory of dropping the Sovreign to more readily compete with the “box brands”. The top three were the Legacy, the Sovreign, and the Landlord. The suggested retail price for the Landlord was $4600-$7100. For the Sovreign, it was $5900-$7400. For the Legacy, $8300-$12,000. In short, you had three completely different tractors, with a price range from $4600-$12,000. There was a $900 price gap between the top two tractors. The improvements mentioned above, would have done little more than to close the price gap, and take some of the overlap of price between the Landlord and the Sovreign. Now, you have the Conquest, priced at $4400-$5200, the Prestige at $5600-$6500, and the Legacy at $8300-$12,000. From what I can see, the Conquest and the Prestige are the same tractor, the Prestige having a few more standard features, and more options. Basically, you have only two different tractors, with a price range of $4400-$12,000. You have an $1800 price gap between the top two. What is the marketing strategy here? In spending on the bottom line garden tractor, the price begins at $200 less with the Conquest over the Landlord. When you are spending over $4000, how many are going to notice a $200 difference? To me, that doesn’t seem like enough of a cut to matter to those who wish to purchase the box brands over the Simplicity. I can’t see that any owner of a Sovreign is going to be happy with a Prestige. Is the theory that Landlord owners will now spend more money to opt for the Legacy? I can’t believe that either. If you have a Sovreign with a tiller and snowblower, and decide to purchase new, the total cost of the Legacy with the same attachments will be almost cost prohibitive for most Sovreign owners, due to the fact that all the attachments would have to be purchased new. In a nutshell, I feel that Simplicity should have improved on the Sovreign, and put more money into marketing their fine product. Right or wrong, these are my personal opinions, and should be taken as no more than that. Pat

[Kent 436]

Agree with Dutch's assessment of Simplicity's challenge, and am not sure of what I'd recommend. Simplicity has already gone after the lawn care market with their purchase of Ferris Industries and their line of Derby commercial mowers. One of them is shown below. They've also purchased Giant Vac and a company that makes chipper/shredders that I can't recall the name of.... I'm not sure how much more diversification they should go toward. They have been and should continue to focus on high quality lawn and garden equipment. One thing I would suggest is more national advertising to raise consumer consciousness of who they are.... IMO, they aren't nearly as well known as Toro nor Cub Cadet, much less the behemoth of John Deere.... They must create the consumer perception of quality, or they'll be forced to compete on price -- which they simply can't do because of volume and distribution channels.... There is certainly a market of aging baby boomers and the yuppies that came close behind them, who have the disposable income to support their prices. They need to sell their products as more upscale, with higher quality that'll last longer, like the Lexus or Infiniti automotive lines positioned above the Toyota or Nissan.... Then of course they do have the strength of their dealer network that they could emphasize more, kind of like the old Allstate insurance commercials of "You're in good hands with Allstate" followed by the "The good hands people...." They have the products and dealer network, but they need more consumer awareness.... Other than that, I'm not sure what I'd recommend. My two cents.... http://www.simplicitymfg.com/images/derby_colt.gif

[powermax_paul 1]

Hello?! Simplicity! Are you listening? Wouldn't it be nice if someone from Simplicity Mfg. actually acknowleged that they saw a discussion like this? Paul

[Kent 436]

How about these ZTR's http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=5039786&dealerid=2727 http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=1138213&dealerid=703 http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=1404619&dealerid=758 http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=1207193&dealerid=207

[Guest]

Just my 2 cents, - IF they had to be acquired, I think Bombardier would be the perfect match (aka: White Knight). Sound finances, good product lines, sound engineering, and excellent advertising / marketing / distribution group. And Simplicity is far enough north to probably be okay by them Canadians to not need to take them to Quebec! [Bombardier is mfg of Sea-Doo, Ski-Doo, bullet trains, airplanes, etc.] ve

[MPH 12]

Paul, I think the problem with reintroducing the powermax would be lack of 4-wheel drive. Think the market for that size tractor nowadays expects 4-wheel drive. I haven't heard of one that is not made in Japan or that neck of the world. If Simplicity could come up with an American made one to Compete with the BX series Kobota has I think they'd have a winner..MPH

[MikeES 469]

Simplicity could use a "Flagship" tractor. IMO a 4-wheel drive 20 to 30 hp diesel COMPACT tractor. I would sell my B2400 Kubota in a heart beat for one. Mike S.

[Al 6]

Hi, I would like to toss in a comment. I believe that from a dealer standpoint Simplicity and Stihl are about the only PURE companies left. At least not having any fingers in the box stores. Simplicity's advertising in the trade magazines is "The Dealer Line", God I hope it stays that way. This industry has been a state of chaos the last few years. 50% of the dealers that were in the this industry 5 years ago are gone. It is a very tough world. Some of the companies that have fell in love with the "Box" stores have a lot of problems. Mc Culloch which was a dealer product and an early force in the chain saw business, abandoned the dealer market and went to the mass merchants. Mc Culloch filed bankruptcy a year ago and the company was liquidated in a 4 day auction. Dealers that were doing warranty work for them didn't even get paid. Homelite a company that was also an early force and dealer line made the same move, dropped the quality stuff and went to the cheap stuff. Serious financial problems. John Deere bought them thinking they could make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Wrote off over 90 million of operating losses on Homelite last year, a month ago sold it to a Chinese company and is taking a large charge on it. Troy Built thought that was the way to go, bankrupt Garden way which owned Troy Built and Bolens gone. MTD bought part of Garden way, part of Troy built, but not the shredders. AMF and Noma became part of American Yard Products [AYP] in trouble and purchased by Murray. Poulan another old timer went to the boxes, in trouble. Huskvarna, Jonsered, Olympic and Poulan are owned by Electrolux of Sweden. Cub Cadet and White are owned and built by MTD. There is no tie to Case International, which just got bought by Ford New Holland. Snapper has been on the verge of bankrupcy for several years and the people in the industry wonder how long. Last year they went into Wal Mart, which really ticked off many dealers. Now rumor has it that an inventory buy back deal they made to get the "BIG" one may kill them. When these companies go to mass merchants, there is no service unless independent dealers are willing to do the warranty work. One of the big issues in the industry is whether dealers should even work on this equipment or only take in what they sell. Since many dealerships have a difficult keeping the service shop in the black, it is a hotly debated issue. Considering that in our dealership I pay over 30 man days of labor for service schools, and the schools cost [ex Simplicity 50.00 per person] plus wages and travel it doesn't take long to add up. From everything I have heard Simplicity has almost no debt and has cash and is looking to buy some more companies for groth. It is a company that has always been conservatively managed and has not risked all in the name of growth. It does no good to get big for bigs sake. If you get big and make more, then great. When you sleep with the mass mercahnts, usually each year they want it cheaper than last year and you may get a big order and spend a lot on tooling to build it and next year they want it for less all of a sudden you have big bank payments and are working for cost just to make the payments and they make the money. They will sell you out for pennies a unit. I am not sympathetic to the companies that have jumped in bed with the Mass Merchants and gone broke. I think they got exactly what they deserved. They abandoned the people that got them started. Of all the companies we deal with, Simplicity is Absolutely the best. They realize they are nothing without their dealers. They would be absolutely the last company we would ever let go. My thoughts, they are free and that may be more than they are worth. Al Eden

[BradW 0]

I wil agree, Simplicity goes the "Whole 9 yards" for their customers, when my Regent lit on fire someone FROM WISCONSON from simplicity came to my house PERSONALLY on OUR SCHEDULE and dealt with it, they (Simplicity) brought it back to their factory and assessed it, problem solved, it just shows you there are some "Real Companies" left out there, I really am happy to say I own a Simplicity because even if it does'nt have green paint it means I have a REAL COMPANY backing WHAT I OWN.,-BradW

[TomSchmit 56]

Bombardier recently purchased the OMC brand, is building a production facility for outboard motor just south of Milwaukee. IF Simplicity were for sale, I am sure these guys would take a good look!

[Kent 436]

Owning a Johnson boat motor, I'm glad Bombardier picked them up. I was talking to a Johnson/Evinrude dealer and he said that if anything parts availability had improved -- he was quite pleased with the new ownership. Now, I just need to figure out who ended up with Princecraft, one of their six boat companies... of course everything on the boat is past warranty except for the hull and deck.... I'm VERY pleased with this Canadian made aluminum boat. I think the only US aluminum boat that may come close in quality is a Starcraft. Princecraft is now putting Mercury engines on them... where it used to be Johnsons and Evinrudes.

[JohnN 0]

We got new neighbors about 4 years ago or so, great people. The guy bought a new craftsman tractor. He saw what I was doing with "new" B-210 about 2 years ago (tilling garden and leveling small areas of the yard) and was very impressed and shocked to hear the tractor was almost 30 years old. Now he's looking to buy one of my tractors, but I told him "I'd keep an eye out" for one for him. Same thing goes for my friend’s father. There is a lot to be said for a tractor with 30 years of implements manufactured for it. Basically the point is, if you build crap people will buy it. But they will notice what they have when they see a quality piece of machinery that's been around longer then the person who owns it. Granted there weak points to the tractor, one is the BGB, but if it needs work after nearly 30 years of service then I'm getting a bargain (only wish it was 30 years after I bought it. But when I fix it, it should last another 30). I'd like to see a craftsman after 30 years and see what it looks like. Fact is I'm a simple man and I'll never own another brand of tractor. John I still believe that Simplicity should do more national advertising. I also think it was a mistake to let go the sovereign tractor line. They could always have put on an aerodynamic fiberglass hood on it or something.

[Kent 436]

As Kent said I think Simplicity needs to raise the company awareness with the public. When was the last time you saw a Simplicity commercial or ad. If a group is talking tractors and I say I have a Simplicity they look at me like "what's that?" though some of the "old" (and maybe not so old) will say "I (or my ..."relative name here"...) used to have one of those...". At the end of 2000 when I was looking for a tractor because I was moving to "the country". I had not found this site yet and not really heard about Simplicity. I looked hard at New-Holland, Kubota, JD, MTD-Cub/White/Yardman/MTD , Troy (wasn't MTD then), Craftsman, Scotts, Husky, and Simplicity. I found the Troy,MTD, Scotts stuff at the big boxes and the Craftsman at Sears. Found Cub, New-Holland, Kubota, JD, Massey at the county fairs. I only found Simplity because I stopped into a tractor shop a short distance from where I work. After looking at all the features I settled on the Sovereign (Anniv Ed - great price - Bonus!) even when I knew the Sovereign was no longer going to be produced. Dumb move...I think not. It's like the Simplicity dealer said after I commented on the heavier frame vs the Box/Craftsman tractors: "If you hit the mail box with this you'll probably need a new mailbox. If you do the same with a one of those (Box) tractors, you may need a new tractor." I chose Simplicity because of the obvious quality (and simplicity) of the design as compared to the cheap Big box stuff and the seemingly over overpriced and engineered stuff of New_Holland, Cub, Kubota, JD, etc vs the actual components used. In addition, the dealer stored the tractor for me for about 5 months until my house was close to completion. (Talk about service). I'm glad I stopped into that tractor shop. If not, I might have been like my "unknowing" neighbors: quite a number of Craftsman, two MTDs, a troybuilt, a JD, a Cub, and one Kubota bx (w/ front loader). Haven't yet seen a blower or plow attachment on any of them. Simplicity definiately needs to get the word out. (sorry so long)

[MPH 12]

Kent, do you know if the derby cuts like a Simplicty>>MPH

[Kent 436]

MPH, I don't know -- I don't think I've ever seen one...

[MPH 12]

There is a man in Tok here who started a putting range Last summer and though I tried to sell him one of the gilsons cheap, he went to sears and paid 3900 for a 20hp lawn mower. He was quite puzzled how my 112 could handle that 5 foot yard rake with only 12hp. He still don't have grass up but uses his 20hp to pull a golfball picker. At 4 grand for it seems to me a 6000 dollar Simplicity should sell. Maybe they need to get after the landscape market harder and come up with a zero turn that gives the Simplicity cut. MPH