Poll on the poll(s)...

[Brent_Baumer 5]

What's the best all around garden tractor ever made? Many around here would claim the JD 318 (which, I must admit, is a pretty good machine, the 110 was ok too but I don't have much use for any of the other JD's). Probably NOT so on this site. What about just Sim/AC? You'd have to pick 4 or 5 to choose from I'm guessing to vote on. Just a thought. Brent

[StinKy 0]

Kent maybe you should pick an arbitrary date on which you intend to close the "NT" pole. Simply allow enough time before closing to allow those who havent voted to have a fair chance to do so. Seems odd that with the large membership we have that so few have voted to date. Yes keep the poll site, we'll definitely use it in the future. As Martha Stewart would say "it's a good thing". Dick

[SmilinSam 4,243]

I'd say leave it up for a while longer or until you have a different poll to run. That way the decision is "crystal clear" to all sides, and no "reasonable" disputes can be made. A few things to consider: #1) You can't make everyone happy in a democracy #2) Its up to each to use wisdom in reacting to the decision once its "officailly" final. Prideful arrogance, nor the desire to "storm off mad -not going to return" is needed here. No point will be made by doing either. #3) This is a community, like it or not, and this club reflects that community of individuals. Every single person here has the power to voice their opinion, but no one individual has the power to tailor the community to their liking. We grow together or we cease to grow. And heres a personal sentiment: I truly wish that all the club officers would take a more vocal role in moderating the "Club Issues". I feel kind of sorry for Les in that he was the only one to step up and "officially" speak on this important issue. Les is a good man and should not have to go it alone. Most clubs have a charter setting the duties of officers and elections thereof. Is this the case here? Forgive my ignorance, just curious. If I am out of line on any of the above, you have my apologies................

[Kent 436]

Sam, I agree wholeheartedly with your wishes for a charter, and your points, etc. I've intentionally taken the "backseat" quite a bit, so that the club isn't a reflection of my personality or values.... I'm in no rush to pull down the poll, it's just that I sense that it is somewhat "divisive" and I don't want to emphasize the differences... Thanks for the input. I'd like to hear other opinions. Kent

[Ron_B 0]

Kent-- I think you should leave the poll up.But i think you should have a date posted to close regarding NT posts.Great site but lets get back to the family hr,Ron B

[johnmonkey 4]

I thought the poll was a great idea and much can be learned from it. One thing I would like to know is how many members are there vs how many voted?( I know how many voted from the poll). It would give me a better idea as to how many people out there in virtual space read these posts. I like Pauls idea of what is the best tractor out there. My vote is a Simplicity 700/725 but I am biased because that is all I have. It would be good to hear from people who own several types of AC or Simplicity tractors and get a feel for the best that is available. The problem with the Washington D.C., Maryland suburbs is that there were not many Simplicity or AC dealers in this area. There is a whole bunch of farm land (tobacco, corn, cattle etc.) but JD and IH are the main machines in this area with very little Simp or AC. I wish that I had a better selection for Simp and AC tractors. John H

[Guest]

Kent since you asked for more opinions I will add this to think about. Most of the "NT" discussions seem to come from some of our best known members. I salute them that they are willing to take their time to give us some pretty good comments and ideas. And I must say some are very interesting. But, here is the kicker. I think most of the members would like to just have it as a tractor site. The poll does not say so but such a small number has voted and I think more members won't bother to vote and couldn't care less. So, in my opinion why don't you post a note telling those that do want to use "NT" may do so but to limit those discussions to so many a day or to so many a week. If a person keeps to some voluntary limit then more tractor stuff can exist on a page rather then at times a lot of "NT's". I already voted and think "NT's" are a good addition to the club but should be limited. JohnLG

[Roy 0]

Kent, Post a close date for the "NT" pole and close the voting after that date. Anyone interested in voting should have done so by whatever date you elect to close the poll. Thanks, Roy

[Putter 0]

Set a date when you start a poll. Question... do you track for any repeat votes? Finally, my thought for a poll, other than "what will this go for on e-bay", would be... is it acceptable to paint your tractor with a store bought spraybomb if you are restoring your tractor?

[MPH 12]

I have posted quite a few NT posts, mostly without labeling them, I'm sorry about that, just a little air on the brain, and a lot of dumb things like the sunrise in Barrow cuz I was on here when it came across the news, I enjoy the broader view of the people on here it brings us. I think there should be a deadline on the poll, voter responsible, vote or you missed you chance to voice your feelings, we just had an election that couldn't end. Seems like some of the other brand sites I watch you can go for days without getting a reply, more info, more posts, so what...my ho MPH

[Kent 436]

1. How long do I need to keep the current poll up regarding NT posts? Looks to me like the trend is staying pretty consistent.... 2. What other polls would you like to see? Now that I've added this function, adding new polls should be a piece of cake.... (famous last words....)

[carter 0]

Kent, I agree that the sample appears stable at this point. Don't have a new topic but feel it is a good mechanism for getting a cross section of those that respond. Ron

[StinKy 0]

Kent, I know you stay out of the limelight as much as possible but when you speak out it's like thunder. I hope everyone here reads your post and takes it to heart. My feelings about "board nazis" and more rules (which few of us want imo) boil down to if it isnt broke dont fix it. The sucess of this club is it's people with ALL their personalities. Without them there is no CLUB.The name might as well be changed to "SIMPLICITY/AC TECH SITE" if personalities have to be smothered. This club is just fine the way you set it up and I hpoe it stays that way. Dick

[MPH 12]

Keep on Keepin on Kent!!!!!!!!!MPH

[johnmonkey 4]

Kent, I have a suggestion ( I know this is not the suggestion box) but how about a a button directed to a dictionary. The dictionary would contain all of the abbreviations used on the site such as NOS, *NT*, BTW, ETC, ETC. You get the idea. My little brain can not remember all of the abbreviations. I don't want to cause a SNAFU at the site but I keep forgeting what they stand for. TTYL (Talk to you later) John H.

[Woodydel 0]

I never saw anything wrong here and I stated in the beginning that I had no interest in a poll. I've been told before if I don't like something I can just leave. So if you don't like the way things are on the club, just leave. I abide by that rule, if things here turned against free and open discussions as you will find in any club environment, then I would just leave or come back only when I needed something. My opinion is still the same, no poll needed. Woody

[Al 6]

Kent, Amen. One point I woild like to make is that most of the things we do in our lives revolves decisions make by consensus. When you have consensus, you have arrived at a point that everyone can live with. NOBODY GETS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT, but it is a decision that everybody can live with. I feel that when we get obsessed with trying to force our wants on other people in a free society or group we are being SELFISH. Nobody has exactly the same interests and many have interests that overlap and share things in common. This club has been such a wonderful example of fredom and a sense of community that I feel it stands as an oustanding expample of what living in America is all about. I think that when items are labeled NT, even if they don't interest me, they may interest others. Who am I to tell 3000+ other people what to read or watch or LIKE. Until you install some software that jumps out and clicks my mouse on something I am not interested in reading, [and I read and enjoy many, not all NT posts] I have all of the freedom of choice in the world by not looking. And others with similar interests can enjoy their freedom. I post quit a few comments, and am normally pretty mild and slow to get excited. But I realize that some of my posts get toooo long. I would understand people complaining and wanting to impose a word count limit. I would obey it, but would not like it, because often I try to explain things in detail and attempt to make it clear. Often, like in this post someone asks what time it is, I get carried away and tell them how to build a watch. I appologize for the length of this and hope we don't go off in some other direction and destroy the wonderful things that have made this site what it is. LEAD ON, Al Eden

[bobbyt 0]

The thing that attracts me to this site most of all was and is the entertainment. Where else can you learn about old AC tractors, see pictures of snow blowing, and hear about the sunrise in the far north all at the same time. I look at all of the post and if its not what I want, be it a part search for a front end loader or a sunrise story, I try the "back" button on my keyboard. It's like the barber shop-NEXT. Thanks for the fun and the info. I like it. bobbyt

[tbar1.1 0]

Woody, I agree! Probably more than you realize. I was also reluctant to vote in the poll, but I finally did, and I would encourage you to do the same. In the past, Kent asked about creating Special Interest groups. The responses were interesting, read them. It seems we are at a similar juncture now. The current poll indicates that a significant number (approximately 1/3 of those voting) don’t want anything but tractor related matters discussed here. I can think of three (3) possible solutions in an attempt to satisfy most of the members. 1) Leave things as they are. Whether Kent likes it or not, he is the defacto moderator. Kent’s cyber gavel, is the “delete key”. Kent has used his “gavel” in the past when profanity has been posted. Is that fair to those who can’t express themselves without using profanity? What about freedom of speech? I trust Kent’s values and judgment. The best way for members to moderate messages is to simply not respond to those they deem to be inappropriate or uninteresting. 2) Separate the message boards into A> a Club Board (where members can post anything that interests them), B> a Technical Forum (where only discussions strictly limited to Simplicity/Allis products are permitted). Doing so will also require a moderator to zap non-conforming or misplaced posts. I’ll also bet separate message boards wouldn’t solve the problem. If complaining members can’t avoid reading NT posts, they would probably complain about having to select a message board. 3) Club officers could appoint a censor. But, what if the censor doesn’t like posts from family photo albums, weather reports, virus alerts, or others about non-Simplicity tractors or products? Suppose the censor assesses statements like “God Bless America” as potentially offending atheist or non-U.S. members? Maybe the 3 above options could be a future poll. Or, how about voting on every message before it's posted on the board?

[Kent 436]

Johnmonkey, right now thepoll shows 135 responses, and the membership list shows 3380 records. I suspect there are about 200 duplicate records in that list -- since I've "cleaned out" a lot in the test database I'm using for development of the new version of the clubhouse. I also suspect there are a hundred or so invalid email addresses (one of the KEY reasons for and features of the new clubhouse version). The last time we had an election, not quite two years ago, the "turnout" was also a very small fraction of the listed membership -- even after emailing everyone to remind them to vote.

Putter, the poll uses a cookie to prevent you from voting twice. If you've voted (and noticed) it will no longer give you the opportunity to vote again -- it automatically shows only the results... Though that isn't an absolutely foolproof way to ensure validity, I don't think "stuffing the ballot box" is really a factor in these results.

Dutch, I think you've made your usual very astute and reasonable analysis. I think much of this goes back to a comment you made a couple weeks ago -- is this a discussion forum or a club? I'd add one other alternative -- an information resource -- but I think that's the key underlying issue. I'll try to illustrate this with various examples:

1. If this is a discussion forum, the discussion should (IMO) stay clearly focused on the subject at hand. If we want to discuss different subjects, we should have different discussion forums. Look at Yesterday's Tractors and see all the different categories you can use.  Just pick your category and add a message on that subject.  But, look at the category that we'd fit into, Garden Tractors, and you'll see that it is a very slow discussion forum, compared to this one. Antique Tractors is very similar.  Their specific forum for Garden Tractors is just as slow as the one at Yesterday's Tractors, if not more so.... TheCompact Tractor boards at Jplans are categorized also, and some of them are pretty busy.  One common problem is how do you ever get a sense of who someone is and what they know or can contribute, much less strike up a relationship with them, if their participation is diluted by being spread over several forums...

2.  If this is a club, there's not nearly as many readily available examples that I'm aware of.  The Yahoo ones to me aren't even really good examples, since it is very hard to follow a discussion thread on them, unless they've changed.  I don't visit them much anymore -- perhaps because the corporate firewall at work prevents me from seeing them ;) but not from home, either... They do offer some features similar to what we have here (after all this one started there) such as photo gallery, member lists (with much less info), member profiles (that don't show true identities), and a chat room.    I've intentionally tried to offer more functions and features in the clubhouse software, and encourage the club to do more..   If you've been a member for a while you'll know that I've tried to encourage the members to get organized, have regional meetings/shows, publish newsletters, have regular elections, etc.  Progress on any of those fronts has been very slow, but it looks like the regional meetings/shows are finally starting to evolve. 

3.  If this is just an information source, then maybe the discussion should stay focused on the subject at hand, as much as possible.  There are a couple of those out there also.  The Unofficial Allis discussion forum is one of the busiest out there, though it doesn't have nearly as much additional information (see the links at the bottom of the discussion screen) as Simple trACtors, nor as many features in the registry, gallery, etc.  Note how much of the discussion is "off topic."  Darrin Stratton is the "janitor" of that site, and functions very similar to how I do here.  This site is also a bit of a "model" that I've used for this one.  Follow it for very long, and you'll know that there's a group of old Allis fans that get together during shows, sometimes during several shows a year... Of course they have the Gathering of the Orange show now twice a year.  Another similar one is the Garden Web's Lawn & Garden Tractor Forum.  This is a moderated board, and the moderator "bans" people frequently -- I've been banned simply because I added the Simple trACtors link to a post.  I used to follow this one fairly closely, and it used to be VERY lively, with members like Ron Ball and others, but many of the more outspoken have been banned now.  Though there are still some "regulars" and some personalities (such as Kevin Beitz or Spence) come through, this site is not nearly as busy as it used to be, and quite often not as busy as our discussion forum... It is also VERY seasonal and gets a lot of "I'm shopping for a ________, what should I buy?" It usually the patient regulars who answer their questions.

I wanted to illustrate this LONG discussion with examples, so you can check, compare and form your own conclusions -- but these are the most directly relevant examples on the Internet that I know of...

I'll close with saying that THIS IS A CLUB, not JUST a forum or an information source -- it was formed that way three plus years ago.  We started at Yahoo and have grown from there... This is intentionally called a Clubhouse.  It is intended to be a group of people with personalities -- read the opening screen of the clubhouse:

This isthe clubhouse of the Simplicity & Allis-Chalmers Garden Tractor Club, hosted and provided by Simple trACtors. We're growing a "virtual" community here of owners and fans of these old garden tractors.  ...

We challenge you to find a friendlier or more helpful group of folks . . .
 

Though it may not seem too friendly lately (at least to some), that is the goals we have stood for all along.  If new members truly do not want to be members of a "club" then they are always free to leave.  We can (and perhaps should) define some further rules about what is appropriate to discuss here -- such as avoiding the obviously and passionately controversial subjects of politics and religion -- but IMO, it is essential that personalities come through, and friendships develop. 

I will not allow myself to be put in the position of some board moderators, accurately nicknamed "Board Nazis" because they must spend so much time "policing" the discussion, deleting messages and banning visitors... I simply have better things to do with my time -- such as add more of the "backlogged content" to Simple trACtors....

BOTTOM LINE OF THIS VENTING:  If you want more rules than what I've defined, then as a club, get organized, define them, trying reaching agreement on them, and then help me enforce them. 

Or, you can always choose not to participate... We don't necessarily want to lose you, but we also realize that it is impossible to please everyone!

[StinKy 0]

You're right about Marty, Sam!! Funny thing about the internet cause here's a guy waaaaayyyy up in AK. who's a "local celebrity" at Simple trACtors. We like your style Marty. Dick

[Woodydel 0]

I know how to stop these polls, legislate an internet "poll" tax. Woody

[JordB110 0]

No where else can you talk to Santa's neighbor everyday! Jordan

[SmilinSam 4,243]

Hey Marty, Living up way up there you seem to be develping quite a following around here....................

[MPH 12]

Gee I don't know what to say Dick, ain't never been cuzzed of havin style before. Honestly guys, I just enjoy sharing tidbits of this land with you now and then because even if you take a month trip up here you don't see the drastic changes that take place over time..Been told you don't have to be nuts to live here but I sure don't see where it hurts any..MPH