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Sovereign 7117 22hp Predator repower


rich_kildow

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Edit: Predator 22hp Information

Wiring Diagram: https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=887c91486ea4c338&page=view&resid=887C91486EA4C338!1593&parId=887C91486EA4C338!1591&app=WordPdf

F5RTC Spark Plug Cross Reference: http://www.sparkplug-crossreference.com/convert/torch/F5RTC

The manual specs the Torch F5RTC or NGK BPR5ES

Oil Filters:

FRAM PH4967 (Confirmed personally, it fits nicely)

Wix 51394

Bosch 3311

Motorcraft FL836

Purolator L14476 is referenced other places but leaves a visible gap without really tightening with a wrench. Don't use.

Exhaust build thread:

http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=158269

Begin Thread: The time has finally arrived: no more lurking, researching, asking questions, or thinking this through. I have an engine, a tractor, a pile of parts, and it's go time. Major credit goes to Maxwood for his well documented repower and I want this thread to be a complement to his build, but with off the shelf parts. He took the time to discuss his adapter and even the possibility of picking up my own mini lathe. The latter has to wait a bit longer, unfortunately. A few other guys helped out with the Triad dimensions to help me confirm things, and somebody even posted the Triad with the mounting plate in the background from Craigslist that I was able to grab.

Basically, I couldn't have done any of this without all your help.

Here goes:

I picked up the Harbor Freight Predator 670cc, 22hp engine for $559.99 after the 20% off coupon. I chose to purchase the 2 yr replacement plan on it just in case and since I know they will honor it in store with no questions asked. I've replaced 2 small ones in the past and was glad to have it.

Then comes how to mount it in the tractor. You could easily get away with some 7/8 plate drilled to bolt to the frame and drilled/tapped to bolt the engine down. If you are going this route, placing the engine fore and aft would also allow you to deal with any drive line spacing issues at that point.

Doing this stalled until I found a Triad mounting plate off of an ad somebody posted here from Craigslist. I e-mailed the seller, paid for it and shipping, and had it a few days later. This bolts up perfectly and I can confirm that the Predator has the same bottom bolt pattern as the Triad. This info is also available in the owners manual.

Sitting on the tractor:

IMG_20151010_170601_0721_zpsp1p9i46u.jpg[/url]

Ignore the steering wheel. A previous owner put that on there and welded it to the shaft. It's rock solid, so I'm just going to install a fresh bushing and I'll fix it if this thing ever comes up for a restore.

IMG_20151010_170608_8541_zpsptpcuuzl.jpg

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Now to deal with the drive line. Rumors abound that this Predator has the same bolt pattern as the Honda GX670 and I can confirm that:

IT DOES HAVE THE SAME BOLT PATTERN AS A GX670.

With the driveshaft, fiber disk w/ spacers on each side, thick rubber donut, and short flywheel adapter, I had about an inch of space remaining, as sort of seen here:

IMG_20151010_174907_8901_zps6iljebl4.jpg[/url]

The bolt that is visible is the one in the center of the flywheel and cooling fan. I took a shot in the dark and ordered this from small engine warehouse:

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/GH618-FLY-H.html

It's a flywheel adapter for a Grasshopper mower to go from a Triad to a GX610/620, which is the same flywheel bolt patter as a GX670. From the spec sheet, it should be close depending on how those lips fit the Predator and the existing adapter. If anything it will be to short and I can build some of that space back out with a few spacer on bolts at the fiber disk, rubber donut, and flywheel adapter.

I also realized that oil changes were going to be a beast on this thing, so one of these is on the way:

http://www.ezoilchangevalve.com/store/p13/EZ-109_%5BThread_size_%3A_12mm-1.5%5D.html

You'll need the M12x1.5, item #EZ109. You could drill a hole from there but I opted for the L shaped hose end and I'll just put a piece of tubing on it so I don't have to cut the frame.

http://www.ezoilchangevalve.com/l-shaped-hose-ends.html

I'll be picking up some hardware tomorrow and should have my flywheel adapter in hand, so I'll update soon. The issues of exhaust,controls, and safety switch wiring are still in front of me.

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Here's a few questions for use to bat around while I'm waiting on parts:

1 - Exhaust. Maxwood cut his hood to allow the exhaust pipe to fit through the notch, as shown in this thread:

http://www.simpletractors.com/Club2/topic.asp?whichpage=&TOPIC_ID=143465&

I have no issue doing that, but I may have found another option.

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/SUNSTAR-MUFF-HK1.html

I need to do some measuring, but this Sunstar GX670 muffler looks to be narrow, closer in front to back, and exhausts back further than the stock. I found a GX670 technical drawing and will be able to confirm if the exhaust manifold bolts have the same pattern. This would also solve the headlight mounting problem that comes with the stock muffler.

2 - Controls - 3 options. First, leave it where it is an reach forward to the engine. Since I plan to put a cab on this and use it to move snow, not a great option. Second, leave everything contained where it is, extend the wires and bicycle style cables, and mount the whole control box somewhere near the dashboard. This would be simple but may get in the way of the drive or lift levers. Third, follow Maxwood's lead and disassemble the control box, route the cables and wires into the existing dashboard and make it all work. I imagine I'll get it going with option 1, switch over to option 2 before the snow flies, and possibly move onto option 3...probably if this tractor ever come up for a full restore and a steering wheel.

3 - Nanny switches. This tractor is currently completely bare when it comes to wires but I have a donor machine I can pull everything off of. If I leave the control box intact, how to I go about wiring the safety switches in to kill the tractor. My big concerns are the PTO and drive lever switches, I usually bypass seat switches anyways. Do I just break the positive wire from the ignition switch at the distribution block next to the battery and run the wire from each switch to the block as well? This way when the switch is activated it grounds that whole block?

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Looking Good Rich! Keep the pictures coming. Im gonna threadjack just a bit, and ask you for a favor. Could you get a picture of your hydro lever from the inside where it interfaces with the control valve? I'm working on adding hydrolift to a 7016 (never intended on being there) and my lever ended up straight up an down, rather than angled back to the operator. Its a long reach, even for a guy with monkey arms like me. I need to adjust my angle a bit, and yours looks just right. Since your engine will be going in a out a bunch over the next few days, I figure you can easily get a good pic, right? :D

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Looking good! But I do have a question: How do you intend to put a new bushing on the steering column without removing the steering wheel? If you have a secret method, please share it!:P

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Curses...foiled again!

That will make it difficult, won't it. Good thing they were only $15 for 2 on ebay, instead of the $50 each on the parts stores. Maybe I will start keeping my eyes open for a steering shaft and wheel.

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Hello, I am glad that you were able to get the mounting plate!!

It makes things line up without over thinking. Could you post a photo of the plate for all to see.

You can loosen the driveshaft mount on the BGB shaft to allow front to back adjustment of the drive shaft.

Did you strip out all the wiring? I will be watching ,as My wiring needs attention LOL

Looking good !!

Ken in Mi

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No, it came totally stripped out. I picked this tractor up over the summer along with a pile of attachments. The engine had blown up and they just stripped everything attached to the engine out including wiring, battery, fuel tank, etc. Fortunately, I have a 916 that is rougher than I realized when I bought it that is going to be my donor for all that stuff.

Do you mean loosening the yoke on the BGB input shaft that the fiber disk bolts to? Then the yoke will just sit a little more forward on that shaft? I think I only need to close a 1/4" gap or so, maybe less, so I'll give that a shot.

Ken, do you know how the Predator shuts off? Is it by grounding the coil? I'm just trying to think through how to wire up the nanny switches.

Also, how is your paint holding up with the muffler right there next to it? I know that was a concern in your build.

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Please always keep this in mind... My rule of thumb when doing a repower is to make the muffler fit the tractor not the tractor fit the muffler. Whether that means getting a new muffler or making your own. Ive seen so many tractors have their hoods hacked up just for the muffler. Ken did a good job of putting in his muffler and I really like the way he did his. The only thing I have to say is I wish you would have been able to put in the headlights. Good job to both of you guys!! Looking gooddOd

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Hello, Yes to loosening the BGB yoke. Electrical is not my thing I have a basic understanding .I just extended all the wiring from the predator so I could mount the predator switch in the dash and relocated the push button fuse I do not have any safety switches currently in use. It is High on my to do list.

I am not sure I need headlights? maybe some decals like on nascar cars.LOL

Thanks Ken in Mi

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So, along the lines of making the muffler fit the tractor...assuming the muffler portion actually fits, is it possible to used 1" conduit or something to extend the tailpipe to a convenient discharge area? I was planning on trying this for my own project, a 7016, and plugging up the dumb hole in the hood. Want the tailpipe to exit under the tractor rather than through the hood.

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The muffler would fit, but just barely, if it weren't for the outlet. There is less than an inch of clearance on all sides, including the top and front, which leads to interference with the headlights.

As to just moving the tailpipe, there wouldn't be enough room to make any sort of bend, even if you cut off the stock tail pipe (which is only about 2" long) and tried to weld on an elbow.

It either needs the muffler to be smaller to remain in the same spot, or it needs to be moved lower or outside of the hood, probably to the left side so as to not interfere with any lifting operations or plow/blower control mechanisms.

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MikeH,Hydrolift valve pics for you:My 75th as received:

IMG_4684b.jpg

And a reference pic from Burntime:

phan1.jpg

 

Edited by PhanDad
removed extra pics
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Hello, Mike I think you can loosen the nut on the end of the pivot shaft, and move it to within reach and retighten it. No grinding or welding needed .

Thanks Ken in Mi

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quote:Originally posted by maxwood

Hello, Mike I think you can loosen the nut on the end of the pivot shaft, and move it to within reach and retighten it. No grinding or welding needed .Thanks Ken in Mi


id="quote">

id="quote">I will need to grind and reweld mine...I started with a shuttle shifter from a different tractor (don't even remember what model anymore)

20151015_073121.jpg

Ken, Do you see how the lever attaches to the pivot? Unfortunately not just a friction fit, but on the plus side, it won't slip in use. Anyway, the lift handle was originally assembled with the "flats" in a position that oriented the lever straight up. I ground the original weld out, and rotated the pivot shaft 90° to the position in this picture. Unfortunately, it put the lift handle vertical...which created a terribly long reach from the seat. I'll grind the weld again, and rotate the pivot shaft back by 45°. That should give the lift lever a nice tilt back toward the operator...Oh, and I'll probably just tack it this time, in case it needs adjustmentsm00Back to your normally scheduled program

 

Edited by PhanDad
removed extra pic
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Looks like it was a pretty clean unit to start with. Yes it would be nice if you could keep from cutting the hood. Good ones that aren't all cracked out or bent at the hinge points are getting harder to find.

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I may be wrong, but weren't the safety switches on a 7100 just for cranking? As in the neutral switch on the hydro lever and the switch on the PTO lever only interrupted the starter power. Right? Later ones did have a seat switch that would kill the engine if the seat was left and the PTO or hydro lever was "on". You could still easily wire up the safety start switches. The seat switch would be simple also, to some degree. Did I understand from the post above that it uses a magneto ignition - meaning it does not need battery power to energize a coil? If it is a magneto ignition - meaning it would need a ground wire to kill it, you just need a normally closed seat switch. When you sit on the seat, you open the ground path. When you get off the seat, it closes and completes a path to ground and grounds out the coil, killing the engine. It's just that without a some sort of logic system, it will kill whenever you get off the seat, which is a little inconvenient. It would be nicer if it would only kill if you left the seat and the PTO was on or the hydro lever was engaged.

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Chris727, I'm definitely going to figure out a way to avoid chopping the hood.

TimJr, I'm not sure exactly how the switches work, but I'll mess with it when I get it going.

I'm hoping to make post the answers to many of the questions I've been researching for a few months here so people who are looking at this in the future have a more or less 1 stop shop for info. Perfect example, here's a wiring diagram for the Predator 22hp:

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=887c91486ea4c338&page=view&resid=887C91486EA4C338!1593&parId=887C91486EA4C338!1591&app=WordPdf

As far as the muffler question, a GX670 muffler will not fit, so I wouldn't be any further ahead. A few guys on mytractorforum have confirmed it with pictures against one of the SEW kits similar to what I was looking at:

http://www.mytractorforum.com/12-john-deere-forum/874786-welp-another-318-predator-swap.html

It doesn't look like they are off by much. Maybe one of the pipes going from the exhaust port to the muffler could be cut, rotated, and welded back on.

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Hello, I built a muffler for my vanguard repower a couple years ago 4 inch exhaust pipe cut to 14 inches here are some photos

muffler1.jpg

muffler2.jpg

muffler3.jpg

muffler5.jpg

I spent probably 6-8 hrs on this But I didn't spend the $200 they wanted for a vanguard muffler. It exhausts down and out the front.Thanks Ken in Mi

 

Edited by PhanDad
removed extra pics
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Nice work on the custom muffler! I have probably spent 8 hours looking for something I dropped on the floor or lost in the grass. You built something useful.

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quote:Originally posted by rich_kildow

TimJr, I'm not sure exactly how the switches work, but I'll mess with it when I get it going.


id="quote">
id="quote">

The safety switches on the older, pre-module machines (like a 7100 series) just interrupt the signal to the solenoid. So, if you're looking at a stock Simplicity harness, there is a blue wire that is attached to the small post on the starter solenoid. That wire begins its journey at the key switch, and goes through each of the safety switches in series. They are normally open switches, so when they not activated, like when the PTO is engaged, there is no path for the signal from the key, and the solenoid doesn't energize. When you disengage that PTO, it closes the switch and current can flow through it. Voila! Turn the key, and the solenoid receives the signal to start.

Once the tractor is running, the starter solenoid is no longer necessary, so that path can open up, and not affect operation.

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Will do, I'm working on it this morning/early afternoon until I get motivated enough to put the leaf-collector outfit together on my 7116.

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