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Homelite T16 vs AC 716H


LesH

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Hello all, Just one more thing while we are talking about my favorite brand of tractor ok. The first ones made were the T-10-T-12 and the T-15 after that when Simplicity started to build them is when the T-16 came into play replacing the T-15. Best, >>->happyjack<-<< P.S. I would add more if I could remember it or ask Mark Waite my friend that used to sell them also. Oh I remember one thing Mark said at that is if a Simplicity or Ac customer wanted to change over to the Homelite brand they would inter-change things like the rear hitch ass. and relocate the hitch points to make the customers old parts fit. One time he was telling me about putting a 32" snow blower off an older Broadmore on a T-16 as the customer kept a apartment complex's sidewalks cleared and the wider blower just won't cut it. What ever to make the customer happy is what Mark says.
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Geeeez what a confusing conversation. I think the decks pin in the same as the 300/400 AC's, but the AC Homelites use a removable idler pulley group. The snowblowers will not interchange between AC 300/400 and the AC Homelites. The AC had mounts that were attached to the frame behind the front axle that were the same for their front blades(that I can See), while the homlites abgain used a removable idler pulley group and bracket that the snowblower pinned to. NOW, the 71-73 1/2 Homelites used one kind of front axle and the 73 1/2- 74 1/2 Homelites used a different (lighter weight) front axle which changed entirely the makeup of the idler assemblies for the Blowers and decks. The older and newer versions WILL NOT interchange. The only rear lifts for the Homelites I am aware use a rectangular reciever and the attachments have a rectangular bar rather than the round stock used on the Simplicitys and AC's. At least this is what all my Homelite books show. I can get pictures of most of these things you all want to see either tonight or Saturday and get them up here. It probably won't answer all the questions but may help. Sam
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Pat, Did you expect your Ebay link to have this effect? I knew I was on to something good here. Fortunately have both versions and feel very lucky Sam, Thinking of selling yours? I saved that picture you sent to Kent. Is there an uncrunched version you guys can email to me? It will be hung up in my tractor garage as reference as the work begins.... The brochure looks great. No one can complain about no color...MPH no Winky Dink screen needed.. Hope my smaller pictures helped out with those with slow connections... Woody
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If you have a hard time working out the dimensions let me know. I'll UPS it to you and you send back. Just pay the shipping..Woody
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Woody, Thanks! I may have to take you up on that. We'll see how it goes here, first. Kent, how about a Homelite poll next? Pat
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Wow! and I thought I was in the minority with my T-12! I'll try & keep it brief; I adapted a Simplicity 48" blower to my T12 by dropping the blower frame down under the tractor frame instead of sandwhiching it between the rails because of the spread on the Homelite vs. Simplicity. I had a friend weld four plates (uprights) to the sides of the blower frame that came up in-between the tractor frame. I took off my front axle and clamped the frame and pully assy on and drilled through the existing clevis pin holes into the new uprights. I needed to buy a longet belt , but that was no big deal. The idler pully arm hits the tractor frame a little, so I notched the frame. I ran the blower dry for 1/2 hour and it seems to work ok. Haven't had enough snow in Boston this year, so I've been using my blade which I mount offset the same way Woody does & it works fine. As mentioned in my earlier post I'd like to be able to counter weight my attachments, my arm was ready to fall off after two hours of plowing. Regards: Gary Hamilton
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By the way the thickness of the frame at the engine is .480 and the rest is 1/8" like most Simplicity tractors. The thinner frame is welded to a heavy frame... I think these will clear the confusion. I know I'm not confused. I've own this tractor for a very long time. It is the crummiest looking tractor I've got but the one that will never be sold. I used this to clear my property of brush for my horse corral and many other chores. It looks bad because up until I found this site I never thought I could find ANYTHING for the old girl. I used to have parts made in machine shops no manuals or specs at all.. I'm alot smarter now thanks to this club. The Vickers will be rebuilt in Vermont. Could ship it but will drive to Burlington and they will disassemble, diagnose, quote me a price and if I decide to do nothing reassemble for FREE. Here are some pics hope nobody gets mad about the long download time.. The flowers are a freebie and have been growing here for 2 weeks...Woody My picture montage is screwing up the page. I'm going to split up with two messages..One moment I split the photo between this and my next message post. Hope this helps. I'm adding this as my memory popped this out at me... A number of years ago this was a fine looking tractor with new red paint and gold lettering. Blue's better but back then red was fine. The ignition change was from a couple of years ago and worked but then I parked it and this is what happens under an old car cover...Paid $500 in Pennsylvania. They (a tractor dealer)wanted more but as it was running the ignition kept shorting out against the block because an insulator had broken. Because it kept misfiring I talked him down a bit, a big bit..My brother-in-law and myself saw the problem but kept quiet about it. We had a good laugh coming home. Click Here for Full Size Picture Click Picture for Full Size Version
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Attachments between my two Homelites can't be shared without difficulty. My mower deck for the AC version is driven from the front PTO through an idler pulley setup. I'll get the picture later for that piece. The Simplicity version drives off the center PTO with mechanical engagement by lever on side of tunnel. My picture of the Simplicity version with the dozer blade is actually the dozer blade from the AC version and attachment points are wider than the on the Simplicity. I used longer pins and though not technically correct it's OK with snow...The front PTO looks pretty heavy duty to me...Woody Click Here for Full Size Picture Click Picture for Full Size Version
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Well I have some more confusion for you. Here is the idler pulley setup to power the AC Homelite 48 inch mower deck. Does the AC 300 and 400 series power their decks the same way from the front PTO? You may be able to use the Homelite on the 300/400 series with a center PTO setup but my AC Homelite T16H has no center PTO. So if I had no mower deck in the first place a center PTO powered 300/400 deck would be useless unless I could find this idler setup which seems impossible to do...Woody Click Here for Full Size Picture Click Picture for Full Size Version
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Ok Gang, I'm back to either clear a few things up or add to the confusion- at this point I'm not sure which........ 1) Allis Chalmers built the Homelite T10, T12, T15 and T16 from 1971 to 1974 1/2(mid year production. Half way through 1974 Simplicity picked up the the production and this is when they started to look like the Simplicity 7000 series) 2)The T16 did replace the T15 as the "Cadillac" but as near as I can tell AC was still the one making them at the time because they still looked like the T-12 HappyJack has and the T-15 I have. This engine change occured sometime later in 1972 or early 1973 and was the only change made at that time.(I have the parts books for both the T-15 and the early T-16) 3)In mid to late 1973 (most likely then called the "New" 1974 model)the T-series was slightly redesigned. This is when they changed from the rectangular rear lift to the Simplicity style round one( as HappyJack indicated and verified by a dated diagram he sent me tonight). Also changed were the front axle, mower deck idlers, snowblower hitching( I have no idea of how it hooked up because its hitching and belt tensioning would be drastically different from the earlier ones) and the construction of the forward tractor frame. There may also be a few other minor changes tha I have not noticed yet. Generally they still looked like the 71-72 models in appearance. 4) Mid 1974 saw the last of the AC produced Homelites roll off the assembly line. All of the above I have put loosely together from a 12" thick pile of dated material I have here. I believe the above to be about 80%+ accurate thus far. Learning new things all the time though. Now for some pictures.
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Sam, when I peeked under the hood my muffler was still wrapped with sheetmetal and no front facing pipe. Used it like that for years. Guess with the restoration a new muffler is in order. I left that off my list to you knowing Happyjack needed it...Your link to the front end reference pictures answers a lot of questions..These pictures should be permanently placed in the Homelite reference section on Kent's site..Good job...Woody
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Here is a picture of the two rear lifts available on the AC built Homelites. The top(rectangular type) says its for the 1973 year and the bottom(round type) was introduced for the 1974 year. http://a7.cpimg.com/image/FF/63/8780287-e265-01E60200-.jpg
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Here is the complicated rear lift mechanism that lies within the frame of the AC built Homelites. I fabricated the one in my T-15 from scratch- no simple task. I used a cable instead of the rod. The rod is supposed to slide in the fitting to let the tiller or other rear attachment float. It has a roll pin in the end of the rod to hold it on during the lift stroke. Same basic idea as used on the AC 300/400 series. http://a1.cpimg.com/image/0D/63/8780301-e17e-02000112-.jpg
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Sam, now I have to go to my neighbor and check the model number on my old T-16S. As stated in an earlier reply, a friend of mine borrowed the deck off of this tractor and used it on his 312S. If I understand you correctly, this should not have been possible, due to the spacing of the front mounts. Another point of confusion is that the code number of the engine in the Homelite states that it is a 1971. I remember that, because the engine was only one year newer than in one of my B-210's. Your information states that the T-16 was not produced until late 1972 or early 1973. This could be explained as due to an engine replacement, or the fact that some engines sit on the shelf for a year or two before they are used. I don't believe that an engine replacement was the case here. I bought the tractor from the original owner, who claimed that it was the original engine. Do you know if Homelite used a serial number system that would state the model year of the tractor? Pat
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Pat, Like I said I could be slightly off. But I have most all the books for the 1972 model year and there are actually two sets of parts and two sets of owners manuals all for the 1972 year. One set covers the T-10, T-12, & T-15. This is the earlier set of books. The later set covers the T-10, T16S, and T16H. So this would also suggest that when the T-16 was introduced they also dropped the T-12 altogether. So HappyJack should feel great about his tractor as that makes it a 1 1/2 year production machine at best-RARE. Also, Like cars, the 72 model year could have been introduced in late 1971. From literature I have that is dated(Simplicity , Allis, and Homelite) this usually occurs in September and October. So, if it were not for other considerations below,its very likely that the addition of the 16hp and the deletion of the T-12 could have very well happend before 12-31-1971. Thus explaining your 71' 16HP Briggs. BUT, I have a T-15 with a 1972 Briggs 15HP. So I would be compelled to say the switch had to be right around the turn of the year or later. Read on.... I also have a price list dated 8-10-72 that shows only the T-10 and T-16, so the change had to be before then. I'm trying my best to be Sherlock Holmes here.. I also have to consider a branch service memo dated Feruary 1972 that concerns the installation of headlight mounting reinforcement washers for all tractors produced prior to January 22nd 1972 (SN/ 20220001). Changes were made in tooling and production to correct the problem of sheetmetal cracking after that date and serial number. My 1972 T-15 has a serial number of 20590002 so that would tell that the T-15 was still in production after 1-22-72. WE NEED YOUR SERIAL NUMBER PAT! Whats yours too WOODY? SO at this point the change is somewhere between 1-22-72 and 8-10-72. So I would say your engine is likely a straggler making its way into 1972. Your serial number will tell all. Not bad sleuth work considering the shortage of written material we have to work with. Looks like I'll have to keep the frame of this 73 1/2 model I have here intatct to restore as it looks like a one year production wonder as well. Now I'll need anoth T-series for parts to do that. If I keep doing this I'll have to open a museum someday... I await your serial numbers guys............
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Pat, On the problem of putting the deck on a 312, it could be done by simply bending the deck mount ends in towards each other around 1/4" to 1/2" to fit between the clevis's on the 300 series. The width of the clevis gap varies quite a bit from the 300/400 to the Homelite to the Simplicity. In most cases only a slight bend will allow a fit to be accomplished.
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Sam, As you requested the serial number off the ID tag over the right side foot rest. T16 28501712 ....It's a good thing I don't need a frame. I'd be searching Ebay and probably come up blank, expecially after these last few messages..Woody
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Gary, as for a counter wt, if you have the rear lift set-up, find a couple 25lb iron pumpers wts and put a bar in the lift rod socket. Not OEM looking but my arm doens't seem to mind..MPH
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Go to the link to see the various front end setups. Here are some measurements that raise a few more questions. Front mower hitch on axle- center to center between clevis's Simplicity- always has been ................10 1/2" Ac 300/400- ...............................................10 1/2" 71-73 1/2 AC madeHomelites...............11 1/4" 73 1/2 - 74 1/2 AC made Homelites......10 1/2" (IMPORTANT NOTE*-but with wider space between clevis halves to accomodate earlier decks from the 71-73 1/2 models) 74 Simplicity made Homelites...............10 1/2" Mower deck Hitches- width center to center of hitch arms that attach to axle of tractor Simplicity.....................................................10 3/8" AC 300/400...................................................10 1/2" 1971-1973 1/2 AC made Homelites........????? I don't have a deck-Woody or Happyjack we need a measurement please. 1973 1/2 - 1974 1/2 AC made Homelites..10 1/2" 1974 Simplicity made Homelites...............10 3/8" At this point the only oddball is the first design of the AC built Homelites 71- 73 1/2 which have wider spacing on the front axle hitch points. What this would mean is that you wouldn't be able to take a deck from a AC or later model AC Homelite and put on the earlier AC Homelites because the spacing is different. However the later AC Homelites were made apparently purposefully to accept the previous Homelite decks with the wider spacing It would also allow for the earlier front blades to be used on the newer versions as well. As far as the snowblower, at the very least you would have to have a different hitch to use a earlier blower(71-73 1/2) on a later tractor(73 1/2 -74 1/2) Blades on the AC 300/400 will not interchange at all with the other brands, as the hitching was radically different from the others I have shown here. The Simplicity Blades will not work on the 71-73 1/2 Homelites because the hitch arms on the Homelite blades were around 2''-3" longer than on the Simplicity, and the hitch points on th tractor were wider as well. ( of course you can bend the simplicity hitch out wider and mount to the front hole on the homelite like HAppyJAck did (see photo in Gallery), but the original Homelite blades pinned to the rear set of holes(see picture) that the mower deck used as well. If you aren't confused yet I must not be trying hard enough.....................[A href='http://members6.clubphoto.com/ericson516076/701205/guest.phtml']http://members6.clubphoto.com/ericson516076/701205/guest.phtml[/a]
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