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Sundstrand 15 leaking input shaft


george116

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I have a Deutz-Allis 916H. It has a significant leak at the input shaft on the transmission. I have been refilling it with Type F fluid -- it leaks about 1/3 quart each time I mow my acre lot with it. I am guessing that it needs a new seal at the input shaft. So a few questions:

1. Can someone please direct me where to find a replacement seal for the input shaft? A part number would be great, and I can try to find the right thing if there's a suggested vendor, I just am new to this so I don't know where to go.

2. Is there a set of directions on how to go about replacing the seal? I saw a post by MikeES from about this time last year where he said this seal could be replaced without removing the transmission from the tractor and without disassembling it entirely. That would be ideal.

3. With the input seal needing replacement, is there anything else I should do at the same time? I figure I need to replace the transmission filter and all the fluid at the same time as doing the seal. Part # for the filter (or where to find it myself) and a vendor for such would be appreciated as well.

Thanks for any help/direction!

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Before you do anything, download this operators manual. Then go to page 20 of the manual, then figure 9 item E relief valve . There is a brass 'jiggle' that will not open due to not checking it. If it is not free the whole rear end will pressurize and oil will find its easy way out. I 'm not inplying this will be your cure but I would check this first.;)

http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/jgEAGP_etH1tG5EPl7mRgtLvBCd6.pdf

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I saw Ken Holz (ACKen) and his son Jason replace the input shaft seal at the Portage Garden Tractor Daze in about 10mins, for Chris DeLapp (bowhuntforlife).

The problem is the driven pulley, IF it comes off easy or hard...if hard you are probably buying a new pulley.

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Thanks for the parts manual RayS, that helps.

MikeES, so is the procedure to remove the fan shroud, fan, and pulley, then pull the old seal off/out, then drive the new seal onto the shaft until it seats against the bearing in the charge pump housing?

I have never replaced seals like this -- does it need some sort of lubricant applied in order to seal up on the shaft?

Thanks!

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The most important thing when replacing the seal is to make sure the sealing surface (usually rubber) isn't damaged while inserting the seal. Any small nick will cause the seal to leak.

After you get the pulley off, lightly sand/buff the shaft to remove all burrs, especially around the keyway. In my experience, after removing the key, there are rough edges that would damage the new seal.

Next drill 2 very small holes 180 degrees apart in the outer edge of the seal (metal). Drill slowly with minimal force so when you break through, you don't damage the case. Install small sheet metal screws into the drilled holes. Use them to pry the old seal out.

Clean up the inside of the seal area; make sure to remove all drilling debris.

Check the shaft again for any dings or burrs created from seal removal. Check the area where the seal face rides on the shaft and make sure it's smooth.

Once the shaft is good, I wrap the shaft in plastic food wrap almost to the seal face area and over the shaft end. It's very easy to nick the seal when pushing it onto the shaft; the plastic wrap helps prevent that. Apply some light oil to help seal slide onto and down the shaft. Remove the plastic wrap; make sure no plastic wrap is inside the seal.

Use a length of pipe (with square cut end) that matches the OD of the seal to seat it.

Here's a post (rebuilt) with pics about replacing axle seals:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/42934-rear-axle-seals-how-to-pics-rebuilt-reeds-post/

 

Original links (no pics):

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/10312-rear-axle-seals-how-to-pics/  (New site)

 http://www.simpletractors.net/club2/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=18062  (Old site)

 

Edited by PhanDad
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Thank you for that detailed explanation, PhanDad. That is exactly what I needed. I think I will buy two seals in case I screw it up the first time.

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  • 6 months later...

Bringing this thread back to life...I finally got to this project now that it's warming up again and I will need to mow soon.  I have the pulley off and drilled a couple of holes in the edge of the seal in order to pull it out as suggested by PhanDad.  However, the metal is just ripping through when I pull (with a lot of force) on the screws.  I am not sure what to try next.  The seal edges seem to be stuck on the shaft.  Or something.  Anybody have ideas on what I can do to loosen it up so when I pull on it, the seal comes out instead of getting destroyed?

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I don't know what diameter the input shaft is, but on some I have used a pipe nipple and coupling and screw the coupling into the seal and screw the coupling into other end of pipe and then tap on the coupling to pull the seal out. If that doesn't work you might have to use a screwdriver to pry it out.

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I would put a piece of pipe the same diameter as the seal and push it in a hair ,spray it with PB blast , then pull it out  .seems stuck to casing .

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On 01/09/2016 at 7:36 PM, PhanDad said:

The most important thing when replacing the seal is to make sure the sealing surface (usually rubber) isn't damaged while inserting the seal. Any small nick will cause the seal to leak.

After you get the pulley off, lightly sand/buff the shaft to remove all burrs, especially around the keyway. In my experience, after removing the key, there are rough edges that would damage the new seal.

Next drill 2 very small holes 180 degrees apart in the outer edge of the seal (metal). Drill slowly with minimal force so when you break through, you don't damage the case. Install small sheet metal screws into the drilled holes. Use them to pry the old seal out.

Clean up the inside of the seal area; make sure to remove all drilling debris.

Check the shaft again for any dings or burrs created from seal removal. Check the area where the seal face rides on the shaft and make sure it's smooth.

Once the shaft is good, I wrap the shaft in plastic food wrap almost to the seal face area and over the shaft end. It's very easy to nick the seal when pushing it onto the shaft; the plastic wrap helps prevent that. Apply some light oil to help seal slide onto and down the shaft. Remove the plastic wrap; make sure no plastic wrap is inside the seal.

Use a length of pipe (with square cut end) that matches the OD of the seal to seat it.

Here's a post with pics about replacing axle seals:

http://www.simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=18062

It appears that this post no longer exists???

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13 hours ago, dince said:

It appears that this post no longer exists???

The link was before the site changed software.

If you change the ".com" to ".net" the link will come up; I edited the link above so that it now works, but the pics are gone.

I also got the current site link for the same post and also added it to the above post.  BUT the pics are also gone.

I have an archive copy of the post with pics; link to Reed's recreated post:

https://simpletractors.com/forums/topic/42934-rear-axle-seals-how-to-pics-rebuilt-reeds-post/

Edited by PhanDad
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I got the seal out with needle nose pliers, just pulling on the ragged holes my previous attempts had created.

Now I have another conundrum -- how do I get the new seal on the shaft?  There is a key on the shaft that doesn't appear to be removable.  Since the seal is partially made of metal, I can't stretch it over the keyed part of the shaft or anything.

Edited by george116
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I bought the wrong seal -- part number 1652203SM.  It's too small.  I bought the seal 6 months ago so I no longer remember where I got the number from.  Does anyone know where I can find something that will give me the right part?

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If I understand it correctly, you're looking for the seal on the drive pulley end of the hydro pump input shaft.  It's listed in my 17GTH-L parts manual as Simplicity part #1652232 which now crosses to # 1612093SM.

Part# 1652203 is shown as the seal for the other end of the shaft (charge pump end).  

The manual RayS referenced above also shows the same information (IPL on page 30 part #9).

And the "key on the shaft that doesn't appear to be removable" is a Woodruff key and  does come out, although not necessarily easily.

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PhanDad,

Thanks for your input (again).  Now I remember looking at that parts manual before -- just read the diagram wrong and made a $20 mistake.  Thanks for the name of the key, I will use that and look up how to remove them.  Then when the correct part comes in maybe I'll get this fixed finally.

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A woodruff key has a half moon shape.    A couple of ways to remove the key is too tap on one end to "rock" the key in its slot and then one end will be sticking up higher than the other.   You can then grab that higher end with a small vise grip and wiggle it out or pry on the high end to tip it out, it may require some tapping to get it to tip completely out.

So keep that in mind so you tap down on the end closest too the pump so the end that sticks up is on the open end of the shaft that you can get a punch at it to tap it out.

 

 

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22 hours ago, MikeES said:

   A couple of ways to remove the key is too tap on one end to "rock" the key in its slot and then one end will be sticking up higher than the other.  

And when tapping, it's best to buckup the bottom of the shaft (assuming the key is topside) to minimize stress on the bearing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

After a pause while having the flu and waiting for the right seal to arrive, I got this all taken care of.  I removed the Woodruff key with a set of locking pliers (rocked it back and forth a bit and it came out).  Then I used the plastic wrap plus oil method to slip the seal down the shaft.  I used a pipe (actually part of a shaft from a broken electric edger) to seat the seal in the transmission.  Then I put the Woodruff key back in, tapped it with a hammer to seat it, and put the pulley back on the shaft (took some tapping with a hammer to get it to go over the key).  I had some confusion with getting the brake linkages back on correctly, and initially the drive belt would not get tight enough to engage the transmission.  Eventually I got there.

I mowed a bit with the tractor last night (enough to get everything hot), and when I was done everything under the input shaft was dry.  So looks like I managed to get it on there correctly, thanks to all of you guys.  Now I need to clean up all the oily dirt buildup that's all over the back end from when it was leaking.  It will look strange to be more or less clean from now on.

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